1
00:00:00,249 --> 00:00:06,560
Welcome to The T-Party, this is
Zoyander Street, Doctor Zoyander Street.

2
00:00:06,809 --> 00:00:13,120
You and I met on, I think, I
think it was on TikTok first.

3
00:00:13,220 --> 00:00:16,677
Yeah. Well, I started
on TikTok about 2020,

4
00:00:16,701 --> 00:00:20,252
so I think it was probably
maybe 2023, 2024,

5
00:00:20,390 --> 00:00:23,968
some more than that
range. Yeah, that's that's what

6
00:00:23,992 --> 00:00:27,372
I think as well, but I
kept watching your posts.

7
00:00:27,510 --> 00:00:31,383
This is a person that I
really kind of vibe with

8
00:00:31,407 --> 00:00:35,212
in terms of social media
and where it's heading

9
00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:38,270
in that type of thing.
Did you see the, I sent

10
00:00:38,294 --> 00:00:41,052
you a message on
Mastodon about what we were

11
00:00:41,364 --> 00:00:44,049
going to talk about.
Did you get that? Yeah.

12
00:00:44,073 --> 00:00:46,892
So you kind of have
an idea. For me, the first

13
00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:50,640
where I want to start
out with is kind of who

14
00:00:50,664 --> 00:00:54,954
you are and what you do.
So I am an artist researcher.

15
00:00:54,955 --> 00:00:56,605
I have a PhD in sociology.

16
00:00:56,629 --> 00:01:01,232
For my PhD, I submitted video
games that I made alongside a thesis.

17
00:01:01,233 --> 00:01:03,886
My supervisor
revealed, sorry, this has

18
00:01:03,910 --> 00:01:07,452
been bragging, but this
is like one of the only like

19
00:01:08,209 --> 00:01:10,367
unmitigated successes
of the last five years.

20
00:01:10,391 --> 00:01:13,114
So I'm going to, I'm going
to indulge in it a little bit.

21
00:01:13,115 --> 00:01:14,881
My supervisor
revealed like right at the

22
00:01:14,905 --> 00:01:17,047
end that I didn't need to
submit the video games

23
00:01:17,048 --> 00:01:19,893
because my thesis was
for full length thesis.

24
00:01:19,917 --> 00:01:22,960
She'd been the one
pushing like it needs to be a

25
00:01:22,961 --> 00:01:24,924
little longer, it needs
to be a little longer.

26
00:01:24,948 --> 00:01:27,486
And yeah, then it turned
out a bit of full length thesis.

27
00:01:27,524 --> 00:01:33,452
So I did both. I did the traditional PhD
and a PhD by practice. But yeah, preparing,

28
00:01:34,559 --> 00:01:37,787
yeah, yeah, I certainly
did because it was a part

29
00:01:37,811 --> 00:01:41,051
time distance learning
PhD that took me a decade.

30
00:01:42,314 --> 00:01:45,058
I had no funding.
I had to self fund it

31
00:01:45,082 --> 00:01:48,332
through, you know, the
other work I was doing.

32
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,829
And somehow it happened.
It came together in the end.

33
00:01:53,853 --> 00:02:00,936
And then like in 2022, I got diagnosed with
multiple sclerosis, which massively cut

34
00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,052
down my capacity for work.
And somehow I finished

35
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,066
the PhD despite that. I
think largely because my

36
00:02:09,090 --> 00:02:13,200
supervisor who was an
incredible like world leading

37
00:02:13,201 --> 00:02:16,906
research called Lucy
Suchman, she's known for

38
00:02:16,930 --> 00:02:20,972
her work on like critical
techno science of robots

39
00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:23,193
and things like that.
She's known for a

40
00:02:23,217 --> 00:02:25,692
paper called plans. Was
this a New York City?

41
00:02:26,365 --> 00:02:29,427
No, it was a Lancaster.
Well, I was, it was distant.

42
00:02:29,451 --> 00:02:32,167
So I was living at first
in California then in

43
00:02:32,168 --> 00:02:34,378
Canada, then for
most of it in Yorkshire.

44
00:02:34,402 --> 00:02:36,892
And I would just visit
Lancaster occasionally.

45
00:02:36,980 --> 00:02:39,712
One of the mistakes I
made was not spending more

46
00:02:39,736 --> 00:02:42,252
time at my university.
I think I should have

47
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,953
kind of pushed to get
myself a teacher job because

48
00:02:45,977 --> 00:02:48,412
now it's harder to get
work because I did it

49
00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:52,695
part time and I had no
teaching responsibilities.

50
00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:57,136
Anyway, Lucy, I'll stop
going on about this in a bit.

51
00:02:57,137 --> 00:03:02,400
Lucy is known for a paper called, she's
known for a paper called plans and situated

52
00:03:02,401 --> 00:03:04,459
action, which was then
expanded into a book

53
00:03:04,483 --> 00:03:06,892
around the year 2000
Plans and Situated Actions was

54
00:03:06,955 --> 00:03:11,676
published in the late 80s to
rotate after working at Xerox PARC.

55
00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:18,068
And it's a fascinating paper about how that
does continue to be very, very relevant

56
00:03:18,092 --> 00:03:21,760
about their asymmetrical
understanding between

57
00:03:21,761 --> 00:03:26,757
a human and a device, you know, specifically
at Xerox, so specifically photocopiers.

58
00:03:26,758 --> 00:03:29,739
But she gets really irritated
because a lot of the citations

59
00:03:29,763 --> 00:03:32,167
of Plans
and Situated Actions had not based on any

60
00:03:32,168 --> 00:03:34,014
understanding of
what's in the paper.

61
00:03:34,038 --> 00:03:36,727
It's just someone says the
word plan and they're like,

62
00:03:36,728 --> 00:03:41,687
oh, I can put that citation in there because
it's plans involved and it's really a

63
00:03:41,688 --> 00:03:44,031
rotate to it because
it's not about, it's not

64
00:03:44,055 --> 00:03:46,732
really about plans like
situated action is the more

65
00:03:46,870 --> 00:03:50,170
important part of that.
But yeah, so like there's

66
00:03:50,194 --> 00:03:53,372
the most memorable
part of that paper, I think,

67
00:03:53,410 --> 00:03:56,655
is her pointing out that
when a human comes

68
00:03:56,679 --> 00:04:00,012
to a photocopier with
a multi-page document,

69
00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:03,831
the photocopier cannot
see the multi-page document.

70
00:04:03,855 --> 00:04:06,412
The photocopier expects
the human to use a

71
00:04:06,413 --> 00:04:09,708
specific language, like
through its interface, to

72
00:04:09,732 --> 00:04:13,052
communicate to the
photocopier what the document,

73
00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:17,600
like what shape the document is in and
how it should come out of the other side.

74
00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:20,942
And Xerox will really
proud of themselves that

75
00:04:20,966 --> 00:04:23,532
they've put all these
different features in

76
00:04:23,620 --> 00:04:25,722
to allow you to like
collect papers in different

77
00:04:25,746 --> 00:04:27,760
ways and like scan both
sides or scan only one

78
00:04:27,761 --> 00:04:29,442
side and print on
both sides or print on

79
00:04:29,466 --> 00:04:31,367
only one side and all
of that. And they don't

80
00:04:31,368 --> 00:04:33,386
understand why the user
is having any difficulty

81
00:04:33,410 --> 00:04:35,532
because it's like, we
put all of it there for you,

82
00:04:35,620 --> 00:04:37,985
all everything that
you need is right here.

83
00:04:38,009 --> 00:04:41,275
And what the photocopier
can't see what the user is doing.

84
00:04:41,313 --> 00:04:44,582
So there's this huge
gap in communication.

85
00:04:44,606 --> 00:04:49,768
And I think that's still the case, even
as they tell us that the tools that we're

86
00:04:49,792 --> 00:04:52,407
using are more
situationally aware and they,

87
00:04:52,408 --> 00:04:56,721
you know, are approaching cut like general
intelligence and all that kind of thing.

88
00:04:56,784 --> 00:05:00,625
It's like, no, there's still this
massive gap between what

89
00:05:00,649 --> 00:05:03,852
the user is experiencing
and what the device is

90
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:12,400
actually able to detect. So anyway, yeah.
So I'm curious kind of because, you know,

91
00:05:14,265 --> 00:05:18,111
being a woke scold on
the internet that I am,

92
00:05:18,135 --> 00:05:22,240
what is your take on AI?
I mean, I think my take

93
00:05:22,241 --> 00:05:24,709
would have been more
nuanced without the

94
00:05:24,733 --> 00:05:27,772
industrial context that
it's developed in, right?

95
00:05:29,090 --> 00:05:32,156
Like, I was, like, as
a person with access

96
00:05:32,180 --> 00:05:35,772
needs, I was an earlier
doctor of some tools that

97
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,070
got labeled with as AI,
right? Like, I was using

98
00:05:43,094 --> 00:05:47,882
Otter back in like 2018,
maybe a little earlier than that.

99
00:05:47,883 --> 00:05:50,668
I was using Descript
very early because

100
00:05:50,692 --> 00:05:54,320
before that, I was using
this tool to try and make

101
00:05:54,321 --> 00:05:57,605
a copy of my own
voice for an art project.

102
00:05:57,629 --> 00:06:01,852
And then the company that
created that tool got bought

103
00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:07,839
out by Descript, which is an AI
video editing software, which I loved.

104
00:06:07,863 --> 00:06:12,502
Like, it was so cool to be able to like
put in some video footage, get a script,

105
00:06:12,526 --> 00:06:14,812
move the script around
and edit it like a piece of

106
00:06:14,813 --> 00:06:19,083
writing and then get edited
video that follows your edited script.

107
00:06:19,107 --> 00:06:21,612
So you don't have
to use video editing

108
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,769
user interface to
produce that result.

109
00:06:27,793 --> 00:06:33,389
But that was before 2021, right? It
was before the data center rollout.

110
00:06:33,390 --> 00:06:36,113
It was before the,
you know, this thing

111
00:06:36,137 --> 00:06:39,612
turned into a bubble
with a lot of mystification.

112
00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:43,741
And, you know, complete
nonsense behind it to

113
00:06:43,765 --> 00:06:47,840
distract us from the
real material cost of what

114
00:06:47,841 --> 00:06:50,651
they're doing, including,
you know, the theft

115
00:06:50,675 --> 00:06:53,372
of people's work.
Because back before 2021,

116
00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:57,552
these companies, I mean,
you know, that Descript

117
00:06:57,576 --> 00:07:00,505
buying that voice
tool is a great example.

118
00:07:00,506 --> 00:07:02,824
What they were buying
was a data set, right?

119
00:07:02,848 --> 00:07:06,012
All of us are using that tool,
a given that tool, our voices.

120
00:07:07,750 --> 00:07:10,303
They had, you know,
companies had to work to get

121
00:07:10,327 --> 00:07:12,727
hold of a data set. And
then a bunch of dudes

122
00:07:12,728 --> 00:07:15,076
just decided I were
just going to steal shit.

123
00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:17,932
And it won't matter. Like,
and we'll get away with it.

124
00:07:17,995 --> 00:07:21,052
And they have. So like
this, the theft and the

125
00:07:21,076 --> 00:07:24,400
environmental cost and
they're just outright lying

126
00:07:24,401 --> 00:07:27,793
about what this is. I
mean, they're either lying

127
00:07:27,817 --> 00:07:31,292
or they're cultists, right?
Like, we've come from

128
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,916
no one really has a
complete explanation or even

129
00:07:35,940 --> 00:07:39,532
definition of human
consciousness and intelligence

130
00:07:39,645 --> 00:07:42,295
to where 100%
convinced that we're on the

131
00:07:42,319 --> 00:07:45,360
verge of artificial
intelligence, like general,

132
00:07:45,361 --> 00:07:48,743
general artificial
intelligence. And it's like, I

133
00:07:48,767 --> 00:07:52,080
don't, I feel insulted
that they're even telling

134
00:07:52,081 --> 00:07:56,236
us that like, how do they
think with that gullible?

135
00:07:56,260 --> 00:07:59,692
How do we think with
that easily persuaded

136
00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:02,670
by a science fiction
story? But apparently we

137
00:08:02,694 --> 00:08:05,532
are because a lot of
people are into it. So,

138
00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:11,098
yes, this is something
that I kind of want to

139
00:08:11,122 --> 00:08:14,972
transition into another
part of this. Because

140
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,704
again, you and I found
each other on TikTok.

141
00:08:19,728 --> 00:08:24,080
But essentially, you and I
have been kind of pointing

142
00:08:24,081 --> 00:08:27,264
ourselves away from
TikTok. And wouldn't you

143
00:08:27,288 --> 00:08:30,412
say that you use
basically what is a posse,

144
00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:34,813
post everywhere? Yeah.
I use a mixture of, so

145
00:08:34,837 --> 00:08:38,571
there's two sides of
it, right? That's posse in

146
00:08:38,759 --> 00:08:42,750
this piece. And I kind of,
I use a mixture of the two.

147
00:08:42,774 --> 00:08:45,680
Like the, so these
terms for people who

148
00:08:45,681 --> 00:08:49,630
don't know, like they call
from the indie web movement.

149
00:08:49,654 --> 00:08:55,212
And kind of the gold standard is posse,
that you post on your own site and then you

150
00:08:55,236 --> 00:08:58,172
set up tools that
automatically syndicate that

151
00:08:58,309 --> 00:09:02,560
to various other platforms. The reason this
is the gold standard is because then you

152
00:09:02,561 --> 00:09:04,882
own your content. And
everything else is just

153
00:09:04,906 --> 00:09:07,292
a copy of the original,
which is on your site,

154
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,565
which at the very least,
you manage and control

155
00:09:14,589 --> 00:09:18,400
the, you know, you're
renting the domain or

156
00:09:18,401 --> 00:09:21,014
something like that. And
you can manage that yourself.

157
00:09:21,038 --> 00:09:23,372
And it won't change unless
you change something.

158
00:09:24,979 --> 00:09:28,815
Ideally, yourself hosting, I'm
not smart enough to do that.

159
00:09:28,839 --> 00:09:33,808
The downside of that, I think, is I don't
think it considers the unique context

160
00:09:33,832 --> 00:09:36,412
of each individual
social media platform.

161
00:09:37,225 --> 00:09:40,839
And so there are things
that I say on Mastodon

162
00:09:40,863 --> 00:09:44,412
that are specifically
for the audience there.

163
00:09:44,499 --> 00:09:50,400
And so I don't always post on
my own site or on my microblog,

164
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,148
knowing that it's going
to go to Mastodon and

165
00:09:53,172 --> 00:09:54,812
it's going to go to
Bluesky and all of that.

166
00:09:54,813 --> 00:09:57,275
It's not a Bluesky
 conversation.

167
00:09:57,299 --> 00:10:01,532
It's further permacomputing,
like ecologically conscious,

168
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,986
hands-on, hackery types that
I'm connected to on Mastodon.

169
00:10:07,010 --> 00:10:10,498
I just don't think the Bluesky
people are going to respond to it.

170
00:10:10,522 --> 00:10:13,132
That said, I'm not actively
on Bluesky. It's only a place

171
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,472
that I syndicate to.
And so I find conversely

172
00:10:17,496 --> 00:10:21,452
that I get almost no
engagement on Bluesky.

173
00:10:22,530 --> 00:10:26,640
I'm not personally investing in
that culture. And it shows, right?

174
00:10:26,664 --> 00:10:34,400
And it's not. So I think, yeah, yeah. So
like, I think that's the strength of pesos

175
00:10:34,401 --> 00:10:37,098
that like actually
each social network is

176
00:10:37,122 --> 00:10:40,492
generative in its own way.
And so posting elsewhere

177
00:10:40,530 --> 00:10:43,446
and then capturing
that and bringing it back

178
00:10:43,470 --> 00:10:46,732
into your own site, which
is what I do on TikTok.

179
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:53,440
And you and I are the only people who know
who do this. I post on TikTok and have my

180
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,385
PeerTube automatically
capture that and mirror

181
00:10:58,409 --> 00:11:02,666
it. And I think everybody
should be doing this basically.

182
00:11:02,667 --> 00:11:05,389
I caveat around
like a cost money.

183
00:11:05,413 --> 00:11:09,120
So we need to make the
funds available to cover

184
00:11:09,121 --> 00:11:11,777
the cost of a platform
so that people can do

185
00:11:11,801 --> 00:11:14,652
this without paying
like $10, $20, like dollars

186
00:11:14,653 --> 00:11:18,626
and one for more depending
on how much they post.

187
00:11:18,650 --> 00:11:21,772
But fundamentally,
I think it's really

188
00:11:21,959 --> 00:11:24,926
important for us to
archive the things that we

189
00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:28,252
post on social media
because all of these platforms

190
00:11:28,265 --> 00:11:31,852
are ready at the drop of
a hat to delete everything

191
00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:35,052
we have ever done
because they don't like us.

192
00:11:36,849 --> 00:11:39,041
And the more marginalized
we are, the more

193
00:11:39,065 --> 00:11:41,532
likely that is to happen.
And it can happen for

194
00:11:41,533 --> 00:11:44,961
frivolous reasons. That
blind guy on TikTok had four

195
00:11:44,985 --> 00:11:48,160
strikes on his account,
a fifth one and it would

196
00:11:48,161 --> 00:11:52,742
be gone because at his username
is that blind guy, he's blind.

197
00:11:52,766 --> 00:11:55,612
TikTok was going to
remove his account

198
00:11:55,724 --> 00:11:57,895
because all his
videos look the same.

199
00:11:57,919 --> 00:12:01,132
And then not the same video
posted over and over again.

200
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:05,150
He's bearing a body
cabinet walking the same

201
00:12:05,174 --> 00:12:09,200
route every day. And
now rating his experience

202
00:12:09,201 --> 00:12:11,551
learning because he's
recently blind, learning

203
00:12:11,575 --> 00:12:13,741
to use a cane to
navigate his environment.

204
00:12:13,742 --> 00:12:16,493
And we can see what's going
wrong. We can see where he's

205
00:12:16,517 --> 00:12:18,887
ending up in danger. And
he benefits from people

206
00:12:18,888 --> 00:12:21,192
giving feedback saying,
Hey, when you felt you

207
00:12:21,216 --> 00:12:23,687
felt okay, knock against
this thing and you said,

208
00:12:23,688 --> 00:12:27,600
oh, I wonder if that's a planter or is it
a random piece of concrete? What is it?

209
00:12:27,601 --> 00:12:31,136
That was actually a parking
bar lot or something like that.

210
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,452
So he gets that
feedback from people.

211
00:12:33,515 --> 00:12:37,083
It's really helpful for him.
And it's fascinating to watch.

212
00:12:37,107 --> 00:12:39,132
And it's always
wonderful to what

213
00:12:39,133 --> 00:12:43,635
someone gradually build up a
skill and overcome a challenge.

214
00:12:43,659 --> 00:12:48,071
Right. And TikTok thought he was just
posting the same video over and over again

215
00:12:48,095 --> 00:12:50,012
because they all
superficially look the same.

216
00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:53,293
So like, there's so many
reasons why you can

217
00:12:53,317 --> 00:12:55,372
lose your account, why
it can be taken down.

218
00:12:55,994 --> 00:13:01,280
And there's real, we're super aware of all
the prohibitions on political speech there.

219
00:13:02,019 --> 00:13:05,233
But we're using it as like
our primary place of activism.

220
00:13:05,257 --> 00:13:09,893
I think it's, I think it's ridiculous
and it's really holding just black.

221
00:13:09,917 --> 00:13:14,000
And that's like the example
that you used was very benign

222
00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:17,140
in terms of politically.
Do you know what I mean?

223
00:13:17,164 --> 00:13:20,252
Yeah. When it comes to,
I mean, there has been a

224
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,758
change between now and
five years ago when TikTok

225
00:13:25,782 --> 00:13:29,612
wasn't owned by the
head of Oracle, you know,

226
00:13:30,579 --> 00:13:33,862
and who is, who is a
Zionist. I mean, trying to

227
00:13:33,886 --> 00:13:37,532
riff off Bill Clinton, but
you know, it's capitalism

228
00:13:37,669 --> 00:13:41,240
stupid literally is
why I mean, it was, I

229
00:13:41,264 --> 00:13:45,372
think it was around like
2013, 2014 and Twitter

230
00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:50,408
switched to instead of
being like, I post and then

231
00:13:50,432 --> 00:13:54,012
you post and that you
know what I mean, it was

232
00:13:55,079 --> 00:13:59,021
just kind of, it's how
Mastodon is right now.

233
00:13:59,045 --> 00:14:02,492
Yeah. Like totally
chronological. Yeah.

234
00:14:04,259 --> 00:14:08,309
When that switched, it was done
for one reason. It was done for money.

235
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:11,326
They could figure out a
way to monetize Twitter.

236
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:14,972
So they, what they ended up
doing was making an algorithm

237
00:14:15,060 --> 00:14:17,928
that essentially kept
you glued, kept you there.

238
00:14:17,952 --> 00:14:20,652
It's keeping you there.
And I think it's also

239
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,945
something I keep
thinking and wishing I could

240
00:14:26,969 --> 00:14:30,892
like get out there is the,
have you heard of the

241
00:14:31,029 --> 00:14:34,586
race, the purpose of a
system is what it does.

242
00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:37,586
So just, it's, they
call them. Yeah.

243
00:14:37,587 --> 00:14:40,853
So they call they call these
algorithms content recommendation

244
00:14:40,877 --> 00:14:43,292
algorithms, which
foregrounds that you, the user

245
00:14:43,944 --> 00:14:47,172
get content that is tuned
to what is what you're

246
00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:50,572
interested in and what is
going to keep you there,

247
00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:55,489
right? But the reverse
side of that, which is it

248
00:14:55,513 --> 00:14:59,200
through, I think, is that
the purpose of a content

249
00:14:59,201 --> 00:15:02,785
recommendation algorithm
is to suppress content.

250
00:15:02,809 --> 00:15:06,320
You go from, you know,
100% you post something,

251
00:15:06,321 --> 00:15:08,377
it's going to be shown
to your followers and

252
00:15:08,401 --> 00:15:10,892
everyone who is repost
every, you know, the followers

253
00:15:10,893 --> 00:15:14,618
of everyone who reposts
it to something less

254
00:15:14,642 --> 00:15:18,732
than 100%, maybe 10%,
maybe way lower than that,

255
00:15:19,434 --> 00:15:22,955
right? Like the, the,
the purpose of a content

256
00:15:22,979 --> 00:15:26,960
recommendation algorithm
is to suppress your content

257
00:15:26,961 --> 00:15:31,680
unless a certain number of conditions
are met within 30 minutes of you posting.

258
00:15:33,284 --> 00:15:37,683
It, it's, it's all about
keeping, I mean, it's continue.

259
00:15:37,707 --> 00:15:43,872
Maybe it's because I've been working on
my home lab a lot, but I think it is almost

260
00:15:43,896 --> 00:15:47,292
like Docker containers.
It's taking communities

261
00:15:47,529 --> 00:15:51,156
and shoving them
together. And like, I probably

262
00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:55,052
have the same 300 people
that are reading my posts

263
00:15:55,089 --> 00:15:58,493
on, on TikTok, right?
Um, typically it's about, I

264
00:15:58,517 --> 00:16:01,932
get about 300 views and
I think it's the same 300

265
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,906
people, but they make
these little echo chambers

266
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:10,012
and it literally, it,
because I have this kind of,

267
00:16:10,099 --> 00:16:13,580
I don't, I'm sure somebody
else theorized this, but

268
00:16:13,604 --> 00:16:16,892
I feel like when it comes
to this kind of thing,

269
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,297
they're, I think of
myself pre-transition and

270
00:16:20,321 --> 00:16:23,852
post-transition. I had
kind of a seminal moment

271
00:16:24,739 --> 00:16:27,942
for me, and I think
everybody's different, but my,

272
00:16:27,966 --> 00:16:31,052
when I decided to
transition, I kind of had this

273
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,800
light bulb moment that everything
that people say, genders just a construct,

274
00:16:40,180 --> 00:16:43,185
sex is a concept. I
mean, all these things in

275
00:16:43,209 --> 00:16:46,092
our lives that we
think that are super real

276
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,621
are really just constructs
that we accept as being real.

277
00:16:54,645 --> 00:17:00,563
And when it's, it's, it's odd to say, but
at the same time, I was reading a Mark

278
00:17:00,587 --> 00:17:03,452
Twain book called
Letters from Eve, I think,

279
00:17:03,453 --> 00:17:07,351
or letters from the earth.
And one of the things

280
00:17:07,375 --> 00:17:10,960
is that it's the, the,
the person that's the

281
00:17:10,961 --> 00:17:13,887
narrator is Satan, and
he's talking about how

282
00:17:13,911 --> 00:17:17,371
illogical God is that he
can kill all these children.

283
00:17:19,199 --> 00:17:22,927
And at the same time,
I was going through a

284
00:17:22,951 --> 00:17:27,212
really bad divorce, and
I was deciding that I was

285
00:17:27,299 --> 00:17:29,669
going to, what road I was
going to go down as far

286
00:17:29,693 --> 00:17:32,172
as my transition goes.
And all these things kind of

287
00:17:35,964 --> 00:17:40,999
converged into me realizing
that life wasn't this concrete thing.

288
00:17:41,023 --> 00:17:47,546
It was a, for the first time in my life, I
was self reflecting, because before that,

289
00:17:47,570 --> 00:17:50,505
I literally, I'd been
a conservative.

290
00:17:50,506 --> 00:17:54,840
I, before I transitioned, I
was going to Bible college.

291
00:17:54,864 --> 00:17:58,972
That I was like, when I
wrote, I wrote about this on

292
00:17:59,834 --> 00:18:03,908
your TransAdvocate.com,
but I was an evangelical,

293
00:18:03,932 --> 00:18:07,772
a former trans person.
I was an ex trans person

294
00:18:07,859 --> 00:18:11,560
for a while in like 2000,
2001, when I was trying

295
00:18:11,584 --> 00:18:15,372
to suppress all that.
Anyways, regardless of that,

296
00:18:18,539 --> 00:18:22,538
I, I think like pre-transition,
I was one of those

297
00:18:22,562 --> 00:18:26,252
reactionary people that
would just kind of not

298
00:18:26,339 --> 00:18:29,672
think of that about things.
And if people made me

299
00:18:29,696 --> 00:18:32,116
think about them,
I would get angry.

300
00:18:32,117 --> 00:18:36,851
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Whereas now I'm like, if somebody

301
00:18:36,875 --> 00:18:40,240
says something that
pushes that button inside

302
00:18:40,241 --> 00:18:43,630
of me, I go, why, why
does that bother me?

303
00:18:43,654 --> 00:18:47,692
Do you know what I mean?
And there's a fundamental

304
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,434
difference between
those two people?

305
00:18:52,458 --> 00:18:56,777
Because me, me pre 2000
would have been on Twitter.

306
00:18:56,778 --> 00:19:01,015
Do you know what I mean?
Being, you know, either a

307
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:05,132
troll or, but never
having that realization that

308
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,598
I am being monetized and
I am being used, because

309
00:19:09,622 --> 00:19:13,452
there are a lot of these
people that are just

310
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,594
fodder for other people's,
I mean, what, especially

311
00:19:20,618 --> 00:19:24,412
being in the UK right
now, I came here in 2016

312
00:19:24,449 --> 00:19:27,385
and seeing like, I'm
not kidding you, I feel

313
00:19:27,409 --> 00:19:30,492
like I've never seen a
country repeatedly kick

314
00:19:30,604 --> 00:19:33,993
itself in the nuts. Do
you know what I mean?

315
00:19:34,017 --> 00:19:38,160
With Brexit? Yeah. People
with reactionaries, and this

316
00:19:38,161 --> 00:19:41,417
is kind of what I'm getting
at, you have reactionary

317
00:19:41,441 --> 00:19:44,332
forces, and then you
have people that self are

318
00:19:44,333 --> 00:19:47,500
able to self reflect.
You know, I grew up in a

319
00:19:47,524 --> 00:19:51,120
family of people that
were just totally reactionary.

320
00:19:51,121 --> 00:19:54,262
There was very little
self reflection going on.

321
00:19:54,286 --> 00:19:57,372
There was little, very
little inquisitiveness,

322
00:19:57,459 --> 00:20:00,375
and I think that
that is a thing. Yeah.

323
00:20:00,399 --> 00:20:04,400
You know, there are people,
especially in conservative

324
00:20:04,401 --> 00:20:07,836
areas, where if you pull
apart like my brother

325
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:11,532
at one time, you know,
if you told him, you know,

326
00:20:11,619 --> 00:20:14,670
if he said gay marriage
was wrong, if you said,

327
00:20:14,694 --> 00:20:17,297
well, why, then he
would get pissed off?

328
00:20:17,298 --> 00:20:20,315
Well, it is stupid. Do
you know what I mean?

329
00:20:20,339 --> 00:20:24,412
He would have this visceral
reaction, but if you ask him to

330
00:20:24,699 --> 00:20:28,079
explain it, he couldn't.
And that's, that's kind

331
00:20:28,103 --> 00:20:31,200
of where I think a
lot of this kind of stuff

332
00:20:31,201 --> 00:20:35,920
around social media, and
it's not just conservatives.

333
00:20:35,944 --> 00:20:39,212
I mean, because
I've seen it on our,

334
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,470
you know, on the left,
more, more liberal than I

335
00:20:43,494 --> 00:20:47,452
would say than the left,
but we won't go there.

336
00:20:48,714 --> 00:20:53,553
Yeah. I feel like I've seen quite kind
of similar things on the left, right?

337
00:20:53,566 --> 00:20:57,120
When the, when the left
argues about sex work, right, you

338
00:20:57,144 --> 00:21:00,087
get, you get that anti-sex
work Marxist who are

339
00:21:00,088 --> 00:21:01,939
very black and
white about it, right?

340
00:21:01,963 --> 00:21:04,567
I feel like you do see that
sort of black and white,

341
00:21:04,568 --> 00:21:07,968
like I've already sorted things
into what's good and what's bad.

342
00:21:07,992 --> 00:21:10,440
And don't tell me to
rearrange them again.

343
00:21:10,441 --> 00:21:16,412
I feel like I see that attitude in when,
yeah, when Marxists are against sex work,

344
00:21:17,999 --> 00:21:21,782
like specifically rather
than against any form of.

345
00:21:21,806 --> 00:21:24,492
And that's it.
That's literally it.

346
00:21:24,529 --> 00:21:28,720
It's just like it makes me uncomfortable,
and I don't want to talk about why. Yeah.

347
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,107
And that that all labor is
coerced, you know what I mean?

348
00:21:37,131 --> 00:21:40,092
So yeah, or other
forms of labor,

349
00:21:40,204 --> 00:21:43,364
like, you know, you'll
have people that'll sit

350
00:21:43,388 --> 00:21:46,480
there and talk about,
well, it's, it's unique

351
00:21:46,481 --> 00:21:50,011
in the way that we're about
people's bodies and intimacy.

352
00:21:50,035 --> 00:21:52,172
And I'm like, what
about football?

353
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,013
What about rugby? All
these sports where people

354
00:21:55,037 --> 00:21:57,532
literally die in their
fifties, because they

355
00:21:57,669 --> 00:22:00,728
and again, like this.
Yeah, this industries and

356
00:22:00,752 --> 00:22:03,680
forms of labor that are
considered completely

357
00:22:03,681 --> 00:22:06,090
normal that have like
incredibly detrimental

358
00:22:06,114 --> 00:22:08,807
effects on people's
bodies. Like, if some there's

359
00:22:08,808 --> 00:22:11,634
some statistic about
like people who work as

360
00:22:11,658 --> 00:22:14,892
roofers, well, like, you
have a really high chance

361
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,867
of a life altering injury
when you work on roofs.

362
00:22:19,891 --> 00:22:23,932
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah,
take it from a radiographer.

363
00:22:26,639 --> 00:22:30,454
This is true. Right.
Um, I, I, uh, one of my

364
00:22:30,478 --> 00:22:34,640
close collaborators is
an artist called Jennifer

365
00:22:34,641 --> 00:22:36,896
Booth, whose work
deals with, um, and she's

366
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,447
doing really well at the
moment, she's currently

367
00:22:39,448 --> 00:22:42,409
doing a monflung residency
in Venice for the Biennale,

368
00:22:42,433 --> 00:22:44,972
um, which is like a
huge, like a huge pleasure

369
00:22:45,809 --> 00:22:49,080
to see, um, her work
deals with, um, uh,

370
00:22:49,104 --> 00:22:53,360
reproductive cancers and
relations to like, um, like

371
00:22:53,361 --> 00:22:56,516
material harms in the
world, um, because she

372
00:22:56,540 --> 00:22:59,840
grew up in an agricultural
community, um, just

373
00:22:59,841 --> 00:23:04,166
getting pesticides rained
on you from the sky as a child.

374
00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:09,431
And funnily enough, there's a much higher
rate of like non-hunching insulin foam

375
00:23:09,455 --> 00:23:11,624
and reproductive
cancers in that area.

376
00:23:11,625 --> 00:23:15,551
And that's what she ended
up developing. Um, uh, uh, so

377
00:23:15,575 --> 00:23:18,892
probably at some point
a class action lawsuit

378
00:23:18,979 --> 00:23:21,348
will result, right? But
it's hard work and she

379
00:23:21,372 --> 00:23:24,012
stopped following it
because it's been decades. And

380
00:23:24,149 --> 00:23:27,086
it still hasn't happened,
right? Um, so again,

381
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:30,240
like that's, and, and
she, what her first job was

382
00:23:30,241 --> 00:23:32,835
sorting potatoes and
she was like everyone who

383
00:23:32,859 --> 00:23:36,510
worked to that job, the skin
would just peel right off your hands.

384
00:23:36,511 --> 00:23:40,492
Like you could tell who worked at that
factory just like walking around town because

385
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,131
like no skin on
their hands basically.

386
00:23:44,155 --> 00:23:49,469
Um, like we have all of these
massive, um, like threats to our bodies.

387
00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:52,972
But also like something about like the
interference with our bodies that labor does.

388
00:23:53,749 --> 00:23:57,785
Um, yeah, there's something
really like generative

389
00:23:57,809 --> 00:24:01,440
about like looking at
it and investigating it

390
00:24:01,441 --> 00:24:03,551
and thinking about our
own relationship to it and

391
00:24:03,575 --> 00:24:05,612
how much our own lives
depend on that happening

392
00:24:05,613 --> 00:24:11,280
to other people. Um, but you know, it feels
like you don't have to do that if you just

393
00:24:11,964 --> 00:24:15,402
sequester off certain
areas of work as being the

394
00:24:15,426 --> 00:24:19,203
bad work where that thing
happens and the rest of it.

395
00:24:19,204 --> 00:24:24,400
Um, bad because of alienated labor,
but work itself is honorable and noble.

396
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:31,872
Well, yeah, exactly. I
feel like too that you

397
00:24:31,896 --> 00:24:35,852
get a lot of people
that are like they don't

398
00:24:35,889 --> 00:24:39,062
realize that they're being
just like conservatives.

399
00:24:39,086 --> 00:24:41,772
When you get into
this reactionary mindset,

400
00:24:41,919 --> 00:24:45,907
where you're not examining
these nuances at the

401
00:24:45,931 --> 00:24:49,919
end of the day, I feel
like when you're talking

402
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,083
about because sex
work, sex workers are a

403
00:24:53,107 --> 00:24:57,200
marginalized community.
And when you're talking about

404
00:24:57,201 --> 00:24:59,401
marginalized communities,
the people that you

405
00:24:59,425 --> 00:25:01,932
should focus on, the people
that you should center,

406
00:25:01,933 --> 00:25:05,694
the people that you should
listen to, are the people

407
00:25:05,718 --> 00:25:09,212
at the center of the
work, not previous workers,

408
00:25:09,299 --> 00:25:15,600
not anything like that. I mean, as far as
centering, those voices can be listened to,

409
00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:17,866
but they shouldn't
be the experts.

410
00:25:17,890 --> 00:25:21,452
The experts should be the
people that are doing it and that

411
00:25:21,489 --> 00:25:25,328
are having the harms done
to them. You know, but so

412
00:25:25,352 --> 00:25:29,052
often those people are
left out of conversations,

413
00:25:29,189 --> 00:25:31,605
you know, even more
and more because what

414
00:25:31,629 --> 00:25:34,412
we're talking about,
these algorithms, they are

415
00:25:34,499 --> 00:25:37,461
containerizing these
communities as well.

416
00:25:37,485 --> 00:25:41,360
I mean, I see it on TikTok
all the time. The only time

417
00:25:41,361 --> 00:25:43,533
that they're not is
engagement. Yes.

418
00:25:43,557 --> 00:25:46,972
Yeah, I was going to say,
like, I've always been kind of,

419
00:25:46,985 --> 00:25:49,832
I'm kind of in favor of
echo chambers, like to some

420
00:25:49,856 --> 00:25:52,492
extent, we need to create
spaces for each other

421
00:25:55,404 --> 00:25:59,371
and to get in depth on
the nuances and details of

422
00:25:59,395 --> 00:26:04,219
a specific worldview and set of
ways of thinking about things.

423
00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,028
We need to have
spaces where we are

424
00:26:06,052 --> 00:26:08,812
not talking to absolutely
everybody all the time.

425
00:26:12,739 --> 00:26:16,519
But what changed in the
late 2010s and the early

426
00:26:16,543 --> 00:26:20,640
2020s is we stopped having,
on mainstream platforms,

427
00:26:20,641 --> 00:26:24,272
we stopped having agency
over those spaces that

428
00:26:24,296 --> 00:26:28,172
we're creating and instead
it's just being done to

429
00:26:29,159 --> 00:26:32,776
us, like, and then suddenly
it changes whether it's

430
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,572
TikTok, whether it's
Instagram, whether it's YouTube,

431
00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,013
it will suddenly change
and the algorithm will decide

432
00:26:40,037 --> 00:26:43,212
to start to move something
outside of its context,

433
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,358
right? Because context
isn't actively constructed

434
00:26:49,382 --> 00:26:53,212
by its users, it's enforced
by the algorithm.

435
00:26:54,099 --> 00:26:57,038
And so context collapse
happens very easily and

436
00:26:57,062 --> 00:27:00,012
it's hard not to imagine
that it's intentional,

437
00:27:00,124 --> 00:27:01,829
that like something
will get taken outside

438
00:27:01,853 --> 00:27:03,687
of its context and its
spots massive outrage,

439
00:27:03,688 --> 00:27:06,331
and then that person is
going through an incredibly

440
00:27:06,355 --> 00:27:11,508
psychologically damaging experience of
being stockpiled by people who hate them.

441
00:27:11,532 --> 00:27:15,920
And they did nothing to
incite it. They didn't go kick

442
00:27:15,921 --> 00:27:18,249
the horn, it's nest.
They didn't go to the

443
00:27:18,273 --> 00:27:20,892
wrong side of YouTube
and say, hey, guys, like,

444
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:23,608
I'm an anarchist trans person,
what do you think about that?

445
00:27:23,632 --> 00:27:25,292
Like, they were just
doing their thing

446
00:27:25,939 --> 00:27:31,372
and then the machine decided to start showing
their content to people who hate them.

447
00:27:32,469 --> 00:27:36,880
And it's a horrific form of
like automated violence, I think.

448
00:27:37,004 --> 00:27:43,200
A people that I'll give you, the person
that comes to mind for me is Bonnie Blue.

449
00:27:44,094 --> 00:27:48,880
She's a conservative.
She's multiple times, she can kind of

450
00:27:48,979 --> 00:27:51,332
shown herself to
be a conservative.

451
00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:54,892
That being said, she knows
how to push buttons and so

452
00:27:55,029 --> 00:27:58,763
she's the one that gets
elevated in the SW community.

453
00:27:58,787 --> 00:28:01,292
And yeah, she's
not doing advocacy,

454
00:28:02,099 --> 00:28:05,191
she's rage baiting.
Now, I watched her

455
00:28:05,215 --> 00:28:08,972
documentary and it's
fascinating how few women

456
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,932
she's friends with, well, how
few women she works with.

457
00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:21,242
This isn't like coalition building, it's
someone out of that in themselves.

458
00:28:21,266 --> 00:28:25,452
Yeah, yeah. And it's
totally, I mean, it is rage bait

459
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,663
in the most purest
form. Yeah, she's literally

460
00:28:29,687 --> 00:28:33,932
getting people angry. I
mean, the thing that's going

461
00:28:38,009 --> 00:28:42,037
on right now with her is
she's brought her child,

462
00:28:42,061 --> 00:28:46,229
basically this baby into
something that she's doing.

463
00:28:46,267 --> 00:28:47,916
I can't go, I'm not
going to go any

464
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:51,209
further than that. But yeah,
wow. But it's to get people angry.

465
00:28:51,247 --> 00:28:53,966
Yeah, that's literally
the whole thing.

466
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:56,412
Like, she wants to
get you as angry as

467
00:28:56,819 --> 00:29:01,047
possible so that you
go look at her content.

468
00:29:01,071 --> 00:29:04,732
This is like the most
negative part of

469
00:29:06,049 --> 00:29:09,814
algorithms and social
media that is driven by

470
00:29:09,838 --> 00:29:13,532
an attention economy.
You know, I feel like,

471
00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:22,295
I feel like that so much
of it is just a funnel

472
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,252
that goes downward
and socially that it really

473
00:29:28,319 --> 00:29:31,458
is destroying. I hate
to be barking my day.

474
00:29:31,482 --> 00:29:35,132
I'm like that now as well.
But I remember when the

475
00:29:35,939 --> 00:29:39,287
internet was a positive
thing and platforms

476
00:29:39,311 --> 00:29:43,452
promoted, well, didn't even
really promote. They just

477
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,716
like I said, especially
pre 2012, like Twitter

478
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:52,640
and places like that,
there were people that

479
00:29:52,641 --> 00:29:55,074
were doing amazing
things. But those people

480
00:29:55,098 --> 00:29:57,767
got elevated because of
the work that they were

481
00:29:57,768 --> 00:30:01,074
doing, not because of the
entertainment that they were.

482
00:30:01,098 --> 00:30:03,532
Yeah. Do you know
what I mean? It wasn't

483
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,189
based around rage bait. No. So
much of this is what it's become.

484
00:30:11,213 --> 00:30:14,012
That being said,
I kind of want to

485
00:30:14,199 --> 00:30:16,367
kind of one of the things
that we haven't talked

486
00:30:16,391 --> 00:30:18,572
about that I want to talk
about is Intrapology.

487
00:30:19,459 --> 00:30:22,326
Yeah. Can you tell
us about that project?

488
00:30:22,350 --> 00:30:25,475
Intrapology is my
queer sci-fi story world.

489
00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:28,687
And it kind of began with
the question of like, why do

490
00:30:28,711 --> 00:30:31,367
I have to share a world
with people who don't

491
00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:34,740
recognize my existence or
would prefer that I don't exist?

492
00:30:34,764 --> 00:30:36,652
It basically starts from suicide

493
00:30:36,689 --> 00:30:42,160
prevention, right? I don't want to be here
anymore. Why do I have to be here sharing,

494
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,207
sharing a world with people who want to
eraze me and destroy me? And people like me.

495
00:30:48,208 --> 00:30:52,110
It's not personal. I don't
have a persecution complex.

496
00:30:52,134 --> 00:30:56,160
It's just, that's how it is,
right? And then the answer

497
00:30:56,161 --> 00:30:59,499
that I came up with was like,
maybe the alternative is worse.

498
00:30:59,523 --> 00:31:01,292
So Intrapology is a world where

499
00:31:02,669 --> 00:31:08,480
worlds fall apart when they, when consensus
is lost. So when someone's world be able to

500
00:31:08,481 --> 00:31:10,858
excludes you, they don't
see you and you can't

501
00:31:10,882 --> 00:31:13,532
reach them and you end
up living in separate worlds

502
00:31:15,244 --> 00:31:18,469
literally. So worlds
can only stay together

503
00:31:18,493 --> 00:31:22,332
through consensus. So I
tried to realize this story

504
00:31:22,849 --> 00:31:27,314
world through a series of
online interactive performances.

505
00:31:27,338 --> 00:31:30,800
And part of the reason
for doing it that way,

506
00:31:30,801 --> 00:31:33,407
oh, so we did this using
software that we built

507
00:31:33,431 --> 00:31:35,772
ourselves and worked
with an artist called

508
00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:44,078
Squinky who designed
a format of interactive

509
00:31:44,102 --> 00:31:48,160
performance back in the
mid 2010s for their play

510
00:31:48,161 --> 00:31:51,251
coffee and misunderstanding,
which toured a bunch

511
00:31:51,275 --> 00:31:54,252
of like queer games
conferences and like it was

512
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,197
performed in like anarchist
book sharps and like

513
00:32:00,221 --> 00:32:04,080
radical cafes as well
as like things that are

514
00:32:04,081 --> 00:32:08,501
closer to more traditional theater spaces
and festivals and stuff. So we adapted it.

515
00:32:08,539 --> 00:32:13,052
We got some funding in 2021
to adapt that format to online

516
00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:16,880
performance because
what they did was in person

517
00:32:16,881 --> 00:32:19,780
using a local network.
But because of the

518
00:32:19,804 --> 00:32:23,200
conditions of 2021,
there was interest in online

519
00:32:23,201 --> 00:32:26,988
performance at the time.
So we got some funding

520
00:32:27,012 --> 00:32:30,880
to create to rebuild the
software because things

521
00:32:30,881 --> 00:32:33,398
further down the software
stack had stopped working.

522
00:32:33,422 --> 00:32:35,612
So it needed to be
rebuilt anyway and make it

523
00:32:35,613 --> 00:32:38,802
for online performance.
And then I used that

524
00:32:38,826 --> 00:32:42,319
format to create a
series of stories set in this

525
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,941
story world where generally worlds fall
apart when people don't share a world view.

526
00:32:47,942 --> 00:32:51,231
So the question then is
why is our world coherent?

527
00:32:51,255 --> 00:32:54,800
How are 8 billion people
who do not share a world view

528
00:32:54,801 --> 00:32:59,721
sharing a world? And we
explore that in the first season.

529
00:32:59,745 --> 00:33:06,687
So that felt like the right format to
tell this story where if I'm going to tell

530
00:33:06,711 --> 00:33:10,320
stories about that,
come from this kind of

531
00:33:10,321 --> 00:33:13,372
collectivist perspective,
right, where we can

532
00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:16,732
only have a world
together if we all invest in it

533
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,192
together, invest our
energies and our ideological

534
00:33:21,216 --> 00:33:24,812
commitments in
maintaining a world, then

535
00:33:25,569 --> 00:33:29,577
the story can't be one
writer wrote a story about

536
00:33:29,601 --> 00:33:33,280
one hero and it goes
one way. So the audience

537
00:33:33,281 --> 00:33:36,019
shapes how the story
goes. So we have audience

538
00:33:36,043 --> 00:33:39,212
voting that changes the
branching paths of the script

539
00:33:40,609 --> 00:33:43,344
and we have bits where
the audience write things

540
00:33:43,368 --> 00:33:45,767
in three form that the
actor then performs

541
00:33:45,768 --> 00:33:48,496
as an improvised monologue
which can come out

542
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,452
incredibly beautiful
because then in that moment

543
00:33:51,539 --> 00:33:54,334
that character is
channeling the emotions of

544
00:33:54,358 --> 00:33:57,292
everyone watching and
not the emotions but the

545
00:33:57,329 --> 00:34:02,197
thoughts of everyone watching
and it's wonderful when it works.

546
00:34:02,221 --> 00:34:04,972
It reminds me of
like improv comedy

547
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:16,719
except for in storytelling form and my God
that has to be so both thrilling to perform

548
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,833
and scary at the same.
Yeah, in front of you.

549
00:34:21,857 --> 00:34:26,251
Do you know what I mean?
And how did you rehearse that?

550
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,293
It's really hard to
rehearse those moments.

551
00:34:30,317 --> 00:34:33,132
Like sometimes I'd be
frantically writing things in

552
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,723
to try and give the actors
something but a lot of

553
00:34:36,747 --> 00:34:39,372
the time we just weren't
able to rehearse those

554
00:34:39,373 --> 00:34:44,033
moments and they just had to
be ready for whatever would come.

555
00:34:44,057 --> 00:34:46,492
You do have to choose people who

556
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,583
yeah can handle uncertainty and can handle
a situation that's changing very quickly.

557
00:34:53,584 --> 00:34:57,404
Also because the technology
is a bit fragile so things might

558
00:34:57,428 --> 00:35:02,748
there might be an unexpected pause that
they have to fill or something like that.

559
00:35:02,772 --> 00:35:07,132
It did get a lot smoother
towards the end but at that point

560
00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:09,478
and I'm going to try
to focus on the positive

561
00:35:09,502 --> 00:35:11,772
when I talk about this
but at that point like

562
00:35:12,010 --> 00:35:15,508
our last like couple of
episodes we had new

563
00:35:15,532 --> 00:35:19,108
technicians who were
absolutely incredible.

564
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:22,150
This translate company called
Transcent Streaming based

565
00:35:22,174 --> 00:35:24,727
in New York we're doing
our OBS engineering and

566
00:35:24,728 --> 00:35:27,973
they are they're astonishingly
talented and it really

567
00:35:27,997 --> 00:35:30,892
elevated the level that
we were able to perform

568
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,481
that. I started working
with co-writers who were

569
00:35:36,505 --> 00:35:40,320
doing amazing work
like I was in much better

570
00:35:40,321 --> 00:35:42,977
writing when I was
working in collaboration.

571
00:35:43,001 --> 00:35:46,492
We don't several behind the
scenes it's also collaborative

572
00:35:46,493 --> 00:35:49,745
like we do story building
world building workshops

573
00:35:49,769 --> 00:35:52,640
together as a team.
So rather than me as the

574
00:35:52,641 --> 00:35:54,952
or two going like this
is how the world works.

575
00:35:54,976 --> 00:35:57,452
There's certain rules
that I enforce but then the

576
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,874
specifics we generate
together. Yeah like something

577
00:36:05,898 --> 00:36:09,692
I said no to was someone
wanted to do a story.

578
00:36:09,755 --> 00:36:11,568
It's so funny this is
before the Stranger Things

579
00:36:11,592 --> 00:36:13,532
finale came out. Someone
wanted to do a story where

580
00:36:13,533 --> 00:36:16,560
one world is going to
collide with another one and

581
00:36:16,584 --> 00:36:19,452
I didn't quite say no I
just was like I need to

582
00:36:19,453 --> 00:36:22,541
know why because I need
to know like socially and

583
00:36:22,565 --> 00:36:25,932
emotionally why is this
happening to these characters

584
00:36:26,070 --> 00:36:28,731
like it has to have a
meaning like the whole

585
00:36:28,755 --> 00:36:31,612
opportunity of a world
that runs on these rules

586
00:36:32,420 --> 00:36:34,775
that has this structure
where like when that a

587
00:36:34,799 --> 00:36:37,372
world breaks apart because
of what happens between

588
00:36:37,373 --> 00:36:41,269
people is that you don't
have to separately tell

589
00:36:41,293 --> 00:36:45,132
like the emotional and
character building stuff

590
00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:48,150
and the sci-fi exposition.
Like these should

591
00:36:48,174 --> 00:36:51,360
be happening at the
same time. So I need a plot

592
00:36:51,361 --> 00:36:53,671
to do both of those
at the same time.

593
00:36:53,695 --> 00:36:57,047
You need to know why.
Yeah so like collaborative world

594
00:36:57,048 --> 00:36:59,780
building like he was way
more in line with what

595
00:36:59,804 --> 00:37:02,732
I'm trying to do with
this story. But yeah it kind

596
00:37:03,345 --> 00:37:05,620
of almost feels like it
didn't matter how good

597
00:37:05,644 --> 00:37:07,932
it was in the end because
the audience numbers

598
00:37:07,933 --> 00:37:11,276
were just dwindling more
and more each time and

599
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,800
I truly believe except
with one exception I think

600
00:37:14,801 --> 00:37:18,391
I tried everything. The
only exception is that we

601
00:37:18,415 --> 00:37:22,080
weren't on YouTube. We
streamed on YouTube because

602
00:37:22,081 --> 00:37:25,695
that was the most
robust technical way to

603
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,612
do it because YouTube
has the lowest latency

604
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,920
and latency really matters with interactive
stuff. Otherwise I would have used peer

605
00:37:33,921 --> 00:37:36,281
tube but PeerTube's
latency is at least five

606
00:37:36,305 --> 00:37:38,727
seconds which is awkward
in life performance.

607
00:37:38,728 --> 00:37:41,369
I didn't post our videos
on YouTube because I

608
00:37:41,393 --> 00:37:44,172
was already having such
a bad time on Instagram

609
00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:50,252
and Facebook which I have a previous
experience of running a community bookshop that

610
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,847
did not survive because
of Facebook and not

611
00:37:54,871 --> 00:37:59,120
having a you know TikTok
 I mean I've been like

612
00:37:59,121 --> 00:38:02,636
you in 300 for you jail
for a million on time.

613
00:38:02,660 --> 00:38:06,400
I was like I've already I
don't need to put it in

614
00:38:06,401 --> 00:38:08,558
such a self-loathing
way but I will.

615
00:38:08,582 --> 00:38:12,092
I've already screwed up on
all the other algorithmic driven

616
00:38:12,205 --> 00:38:14,621
platforms. I'm not doing
YouTube until I have

617
00:38:14,645 --> 00:38:17,452
someone I can hire who
knows how to do this properly

618
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,769
like and if that means
doing it after we've

619
00:38:20,793 --> 00:38:23,447
done all of the performances
then so be it right

620
00:38:23,448 --> 00:38:27,177
but now there's no funding to
pay someone to do that anyway.

621
00:38:27,201 --> 00:38:29,287
There's something
this probably a

622
00:38:29,288 --> 00:38:31,663
side note that's going to
get distracted but something

623
00:38:31,687 --> 00:38:33,767
I keep coming back to
you is if these platforms

624
00:38:33,768 --> 00:38:36,668
really worked right if
it really was just a case

625
00:38:36,692 --> 00:38:39,607
of I would just follow
the formula that this guy

626
00:38:39,608 --> 00:38:42,641
with a workshop is selling
you and you'll succeed.

627
00:38:42,665 --> 00:38:45,132
If that was the case
there'd be a lot of

628
00:38:45,133 --> 00:38:49,240
managers and producers
lining up to find talent

629
00:38:49,264 --> 00:38:53,120
that they can just that
they could just give

630
00:38:53,121 --> 00:38:55,978
that that person instructions
and tune what they

631
00:38:56,002 --> 00:38:58,812
do and get a cut of
this inevitable profit that

632
00:38:58,813 --> 00:39:02,018
will surely ensue if
you do everything right.

633
00:39:02,042 --> 00:39:05,692
If all it takes is to know
the formula and apply it

634
00:39:05,730 --> 00:39:08,562
someone would be knowing
the formula and applying

635
00:39:08,586 --> 00:39:11,372
it and just finding
talent to like slot in place

636
00:39:11,410 --> 00:39:14,202
right and then you get
50% they get 50% and

637
00:39:14,226 --> 00:39:17,280
everybody's happy that's
not happening it's not

638
00:39:17,281 --> 00:39:22,304
happening because the economy of it doesn't
work because the whole thing is a lie.

639
00:39:22,305 --> 00:39:26,983
I was doing TikTok Instagram I
was posting in every group chat

640
00:39:27,007 --> 00:39:30,560
for like creatives and
theater and interactive

641
00:39:30,561 --> 00:39:33,861
and all of that I am in so
many discords and every

642
00:39:33,885 --> 00:39:37,120
time we had something to
promote I would be going

643
00:39:37,121 --> 00:39:39,617
around and it gets so
humiliating posting in

644
00:39:39,641 --> 00:39:42,492
every group chat posting
in every discord emailing

645
00:39:42,493 --> 00:39:46,466
every newsletter like
sending out you know 100 like

646
00:39:46,490 --> 00:39:50,252
different press releases
to 100 different people

647
00:39:50,290 --> 00:39:54,013
and it took so much energy
of which you know MS

648
00:39:54,037 --> 00:39:57,840
since 2022 I already
had very little I had about

649
00:39:57,841 --> 00:40:01,349
20 working hours a week
and I had to make the

650
00:40:01,373 --> 00:40:04,972
thing promote the thing
manage about 33 lenses

651
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:10,122
like it it was completely
like unmanageable and

652
00:40:10,146 --> 00:40:14,012
what it really needed to
make all of that worth it

653
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,074
was some kind of stable
foundation of a community

654
00:40:18,098 --> 00:40:21,040
that will show up for
this and I believe we

655
00:40:21,041 --> 00:40:23,728
would have had that
in the 2010s like the way

656
00:40:23,752 --> 00:40:26,572
Twitter was in the 2010s
this would have worked

657
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:30,036
the way Tumblr was in
the 2010s right this could

658
00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:33,040
have worked I think
but now you cannot post

659
00:40:33,041 --> 00:40:35,562
something send it to
everyone you know it goes to

660
00:40:35,586 --> 00:40:38,167
everyone you follow and
then the people who really

661
00:40:38,168 --> 00:40:40,681
care about it share it
with all of that and you

662
00:40:40,705 --> 00:40:43,292
get my reality that by
organically I don't think

663
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,788
it happens anymore
and I got so frustrated like

664
00:40:48,812 --> 00:40:52,572
I was like there's only
two things really that

665
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:55,967
we can potentially rely
upon one is direct word

666
00:40:55,991 --> 00:40:59,052
of mouth like actually
messaging individuals

667
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:01,691
who you know are likely
to care about this thing

668
00:41:01,715 --> 00:41:04,172
right and it can't only
be me who's doing that

669
00:41:04,173 --> 00:41:07,672
it has to be other people
on the team and the

670
00:41:07,696 --> 00:41:11,600
other thing is um if a
few of us have even a small

671
00:41:11,601 --> 00:41:14,839
audience that connect
with us personally um

672
00:41:14,863 --> 00:41:18,492
then we can share what
we're doing with them but

673
00:41:18,705 --> 00:41:21,668
again it I think it was
really only just me posting

674
00:41:21,692 --> 00:41:24,487
building and audience
to actually talking I mean

675
00:41:24,488 --> 00:41:26,328
I say audience but I'm
very community oriented

676
00:41:26,352 --> 00:41:28,252
in the way I use social
media but you know like

677
00:41:28,253 --> 00:41:31,521
actually engaging
people in conversation and

678
00:41:31,545 --> 00:41:35,212
trying to get the word
out that way um and I like

679
00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:38,622
there was this moment
where I created this whole

680
00:41:38,646 --> 00:41:42,172
like framework for thinking
about online marketing

681
00:41:42,235 --> 00:41:46,320
that's based on like like we can't rely on
the algorithm so here's what we do instead

682
00:41:46,445 --> 00:41:51,840
and it integrates this posse and pesos
approach um with some automated systems

683
00:41:52,925 --> 00:41:55,277
and shared this with
everybody and I got zero

684
00:41:55,301 --> 00:41:57,767
response and I think
part of it is the way that

685
00:41:57,768 --> 00:42:00,443
I communicated it
like it was very systems

686
00:42:00,467 --> 00:42:03,612
oriented I didn't translate
it from like autistic

687
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,676
systems oriented thinking
into um that kind of

688
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,600
personal empowering
like well it's marketing

689
00:42:13,601 --> 00:42:16,122
but it's it's also like uh
there's a way that you

690
00:42:16,146 --> 00:42:18,732
have to talk to teams
right to kind of hear people

691
00:42:18,733 --> 00:42:22,342
on board um I didn't do
that translation work and

692
00:42:22,366 --> 00:42:25,840
so it just didn't land
like at all so it's easy

693
00:42:25,841 --> 00:42:28,373
for me to say well people
didn't do it so but I was

694
00:42:28,397 --> 00:42:30,892
right like maybe I was
wrong and that's why people

695
00:42:30,893 --> 00:42:34,472
didn't do it right but like
it's like we need another

696
00:42:34,496 --> 00:42:37,680
way to think about this
and I feel like I'm not

697
00:42:37,681 --> 00:42:40,253
being heard when I tell
people this whether it's

698
00:42:40,277 --> 00:42:43,127
within a team or whether
it's just like conversations

699
00:42:43,128 --> 00:42:45,323
on social media about
social media I think

700
00:42:45,347 --> 00:42:47,932
people still believe that
this works because they

701
00:42:48,070 --> 00:42:50,803
think of the outliers
they think of the people

702
00:42:50,827 --> 00:42:53,687
they follow or the people
they know who have got

703
00:42:53,688 --> 00:42:56,487
on big and they're like
clearly it works because

704
00:42:56,511 --> 00:42:59,207
you can get big or like
I hear a lot of people

705
00:42:59,208 --> 00:43:03,840
going and well clearly it works because
I'm reaching people I wouldn't have reached

706
00:43:03,940 --> 00:43:06,480
without this platform
right and reaching people

707
00:43:06,504 --> 00:43:08,732
outside of my
immediate circle of friends

708
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:12,000
so clearly it works and
I'm getting so frustrated

709
00:43:12,024 --> 00:43:14,892
trying to tell people
like you I don't think

710
00:43:14,980 --> 00:43:17,095
I think these are people
who don't know what it

711
00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:19,287
was like 10 years ago
like oh slightly more than

712
00:43:19,288 --> 00:43:22,125
10 years ago right um
they don't know what it

713
00:43:22,149 --> 00:43:25,132
was like to be on Twitter
in 2012 red like find

714
00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:28,760
all these different people
and like I had um back

715
00:43:28,784 --> 00:43:32,092
then I crowdfunded a
book about the Dreamcast

716
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,039
like 200 not people
gave me money so I could

717
00:43:36,063 --> 00:43:38,972
write a book about the
Dreamcast there's no way I

718
00:43:40,190 --> 00:43:43,846
could do that now no
way I had I started my own

719
00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:47,840
journal of games history
um and got like uh I don't

720
00:43:47,841 --> 00:43:50,099
remember how many but
like a healthy number of

721
00:43:50,123 --> 00:43:52,487
people downloading it
every month I would always

722
00:43:52,488 --> 00:43:55,143
easily get enough
submissions to pull something

723
00:43:55,167 --> 00:43:58,007
together um at like very
short notice and I wasn't

724
00:43:58,008 --> 00:44:00,394
having to like put things
up there repeatedly and

725
00:44:00,418 --> 00:44:02,967
like basically beg and
plead people to pay attention

726
00:44:02,968 --> 00:44:05,896
to what I was doing
like it was just right there

727
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,047
and it's gone and people
don't realize what they've

728
00:44:09,048 --> 00:44:11,748
lost and I think they focus
so much on the outliers

729
00:44:11,772 --> 00:44:14,327
that like oh someone
can get famous therefore it

730
00:44:14,328 --> 00:44:17,095
works they don't think
about the average I was never

731
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:19,852
Twitter famous I never had
more than 3000 followers

732
00:44:20,450 --> 00:44:23,420
I was experiencing the
average and the average

733
00:44:23,444 --> 00:44:26,492
was you can put something
out and it will reach

734
00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:29,809
hundreds of people
and not just idle views like

735
00:44:29,833 --> 00:44:33,200
hundreds of people would
pay me money or hundreds

736
00:44:33,201 --> 00:44:36,664
of people would download
the thing that I'd made

737
00:44:36,688 --> 00:44:40,080
right like now you can't
even link to things on

738
00:44:40,081 --> 00:44:42,428
social media right so
like download the thing I

739
00:44:42,452 --> 00:44:44,812
made is a massive ask
like you're gonna have to

740
00:44:44,875 --> 00:44:48,279
click five times to get to
the thing that I've made

741
00:44:48,303 --> 00:44:51,440
I'm gonna lose you by
then so I'm so frustrated

742
00:44:51,441 --> 00:44:54,743
because like we have
alternatives you can still

743
00:44:54,767 --> 00:44:58,012
link to things on um
community owned platforms

744
00:44:58,075 --> 00:45:00,598
like Mastodon and PeerTube
 um in fact PeerTube

745
00:45:00,622 --> 00:45:03,052
has a beautiful integrated
way of putting your

746
00:45:03,885 --> 00:45:07,810
Patreon right there um
or your coffee or whatever

747
00:45:07,834 --> 00:45:11,771
like um crowdfunding uh
support thing right there

748
00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:14,504
like in its own special
place by the video we have

749
00:45:14,528 --> 00:45:17,127
these alternatives where
people don't want to use

750
00:45:17,128 --> 00:45:19,382
them because you can't
get famous on them and

751
00:45:19,406 --> 00:45:21,927
people aren't used to
thinking about people are so

752
00:45:21,928 --> 00:45:24,668
used to thinking about
getting famous and they don't

753
00:45:24,692 --> 00:45:27,292
think about what's the
average like what's likely

754
00:45:27,293 --> 00:45:31,183
to happen um I think
about how don't you think

755
00:45:31,207 --> 00:45:35,280
it's like a capitalist
mindset like uh I'm gonna

756
00:45:35,281 --> 00:45:37,944
become a millionaire you
do you know what I mean

757
00:45:37,968 --> 00:45:40,812
it's like that one thing I
compare it to in my head

758
00:45:40,813 --> 00:45:44,507
it's like um Martin Lewis
MoneySavingExpert

759
00:45:44,531 --> 00:45:48,320
um his thing on premium
bonds which for people

760
00:45:48,321 --> 00:45:51,908
watching outside of the
UK um premium bonds are

761
00:45:51,932 --> 00:45:55,532
a very popular way of
um putting money aside in

762
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,704
savings um they are so
you have money in a pot

763
00:45:59,728 --> 00:46:03,760
and every it's like buying
it a each pound that

764
00:46:03,761 --> 00:46:06,780
you have in your pot is
basically a lottery ticket

765
00:46:06,804 --> 00:46:09,532
and so everyone there's
a chance that you get

766
00:46:09,770 --> 00:46:12,966
a really big win on your
premium bond um or

767
00:46:12,990 --> 00:46:16,572
what otherwise it's zero
and so Martin Lewis has

768
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:29,200
punched the numbers and has shown
that on average a premium bond gets you

769
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,067
increase the amount of
money that you have you

770
00:46:32,091 --> 00:46:34,732
should put your money
in a normal savings account

771
00:46:34,770 --> 00:46:37,772
not in a premium bond
but people love premium

772
00:46:37,796 --> 00:46:41,212
bonds because they love
gambling it feels wonderful

773
00:46:41,250 --> 00:46:44,108
right and I think
it's like that like I I

774
00:46:44,132 --> 00:46:47,200
think we need the
social media equivalent of

775
00:46:47,201 --> 00:46:49,293
Martin Lewis MoneySavingExpert
 that like

776
00:46:49,317 --> 00:46:51,772
crunch the numbers think
about the average what's

777
00:46:51,773 --> 00:46:55,590
actually likely to happen
to you like you want

778
00:46:55,614 --> 00:46:59,372
a good average not an
outstanding rare chance

779
00:46:59,410 --> 00:47:03,016
right well the the thing
that would really that

780
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,800
really irritates me about
it though is for me the

781
00:47:06,801 --> 00:47:10,305
big example is like when
everybody left Twitter

782
00:47:10,329 --> 00:47:13,760
they could have went
to Mastodon but instead

783
00:47:13,761 --> 00:47:16,735
they went to Bluesky
which is just literally

784
00:47:16,759 --> 00:47:20,012
the same guy that created
Twitter created massive

785
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,235
army created Twitter
created Bluesky it's owned

786
00:47:25,259 --> 00:47:29,052
by crypto bros um but
somehow those people are

787
00:47:31,180 --> 00:47:35,018
going to have your best
best interests in mind

788
00:47:35,042 --> 00:47:38,880
and it's like why I mean
I I keep going why do

789
00:47:38,881 --> 00:47:42,469
you keep doing this you
leave one platform for

790
00:47:42,493 --> 00:47:46,172
another and you'd get
people that would be like

791
00:47:47,010 --> 00:47:50,490
you know it's too hard
to learn blah blah blah

792
00:47:50,514 --> 00:47:53,932
with masses on like
literally this is Twitter

793
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,974
like literally I mean it's
tweet deck but I mean

794
00:47:57,998 --> 00:48:01,212
yeah do you know what
I mean it's not I know

795
00:48:02,109 --> 00:48:06,960
but yeah it's not hard day today I think
to be fair to them my when I first moved to

796
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,018
Mastodon it I don't
want to be fair to them

797
00:48:12,042 --> 00:48:16,172
when I first moved to
Mastodon in 2017 um like

798
00:48:16,285 --> 00:48:18,423
it was all right for a
few months and then I

799
00:48:18,447 --> 00:48:20,892
didn't have such a good
experience and it was only

800
00:48:21,495 --> 00:48:25,164
in I think 2021 um
that I think I posted a

801
00:48:25,188 --> 00:48:29,132
message on that social
life this just doesn't

802
00:48:29,170 --> 00:48:33,051
work for me it's not
very engaging like it's not

803
00:48:33,075 --> 00:48:37,132
there's a really low or
high signal to noise ratio

804
00:48:38,980 --> 00:48:42,398
right um and then uh
someone who I had been

805
00:48:42,422 --> 00:48:46,480
friends with on Twitter
um invited me to join their

806
00:48:46,481 --> 00:48:48,868
much smaller Mastodon
server and it's actually

807
00:48:48,892 --> 00:48:51,292
you know to get into
the technicalities it's a

808
00:48:51,293 --> 00:48:54,775
Hometown server which
has different um facilities

809
00:48:54,799 --> 00:48:58,092
and settings that are
much more geared towards

810
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,224
small and I don't know
nourishing communities

811
00:49:03,248 --> 00:49:07,280
um and that was when
my experience of Mastodon

812
00:49:07,281 --> 00:49:10,175
massively improved and
I realized that Mastodon

813
00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:13,292
is the school cafeteria
right like you're choosing

814
00:49:13,293 --> 00:49:16,445
which table to sit at
you're all in the same room

815
00:49:16,469 --> 00:49:19,452
but it really matters
what table you're at and

816
00:49:19,540 --> 00:49:22,376
that's actually not a
technical problem right

817
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,680
that's a social problem
like but I get that it feels

818
00:49:25,681 --> 00:49:28,347
like a technical problem
because it's but don't you

819
00:49:28,371 --> 00:49:30,892
think the sign up point
but don't you think that

820
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,637
that technical or that
technical problem is also a

821
00:49:35,661 --> 00:49:39,852
social problem because I
feel like this is manipulation

822
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,114
who do you know what I
mean I feel like that when

823
00:49:43,138 --> 00:49:45,852
it comes to the social
media sites it's almost like

824
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:50,423
people want to do them
scroll they want to be fed

825
00:49:50,447 --> 00:49:54,012
content that feels like
they're getting some kind

826
00:49:55,285 --> 00:49:59,110
of dopamine hit from it
uh they want they want

827
00:49:59,134 --> 00:50:02,972
to be outraged they
want uh it just feels very

828
00:50:03,060 --> 00:50:06,114
intentional the one thing
that bothers me about

829
00:50:06,138 --> 00:50:09,520
Mastodon is just I feel
like I feel like I'm talking

830
00:50:09,521 --> 00:50:13,035
I feel like I'm going
into closet back here and

831
00:50:13,059 --> 00:50:16,812
talking to myself because
I might get two or three

832
00:50:19,730 --> 00:50:23,572
people rarely commenting
I put a post up on blue

833
00:50:23,596 --> 00:50:27,680
sky or um on TikTok you
know I'm getting yes I have

834
00:50:27,681 --> 00:50:30,774
my 300 people but I'm
getting 300 people having

835
00:50:30,798 --> 00:50:33,760
a conversation or you
know 20 people having a

836
00:50:33,761 --> 00:50:37,588
conversation so I mean
it does feel like a bit

837
00:50:37,612 --> 00:50:41,452
of a desert the thing I
like about Mastodon is

838
00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:44,057
they there's actually
something I can do about

839
00:50:44,081 --> 00:50:46,487
it this week there was
two creative prompts

840
00:50:46,488 --> 00:50:48,998
in the same week so I
was actually doing two

841
00:50:49,022 --> 00:50:52,012
creative challenges in one
week but um it there were

842
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:54,518
they were basically hashtag
campaigns then there

843
00:50:54,542 --> 00:50:56,972
was a week when there
were two different prompts

844
00:50:57,010 --> 00:50:59,642
to do a creative activity
one of them was um

845
00:50:59,666 --> 00:51:02,487
weak of patching so it's
broadly about music or

846
00:51:02,488 --> 00:51:05,304
though I think some
people did visuals using some

847
00:51:05,328 --> 00:51:07,927
kind of system that
involves patching between

848
00:51:07,928 --> 00:51:10,650
things so like your
typical example would be

849
00:51:10,674 --> 00:51:13,852
modular synth but there
are softwares that like use

850
00:51:13,853 --> 00:51:17,214
that way of thinking as
well um and then another

851
00:51:17,238 --> 00:51:20,400
one was um old computer
challenge like get an

852
00:51:20,401 --> 00:51:23,056
old computer and make
it work again and so I had

853
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,687
these projects ongoing I
was posting about them

854
00:51:25,688 --> 00:51:28,416
every day on the hashtag
and people would you

855
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,367
know this is a place where
hashtags work the way

856
00:51:31,368 --> 00:51:33,868
they used to work right
where like you follow a

857
00:51:33,892 --> 00:51:36,412
hashtag and you get
everything that's posted to

858
00:51:36,413 --> 00:51:39,474
that hashtag the
hashtag isn't an instruction

859
00:51:39,498 --> 00:51:42,640
to the algorithm it's
like it's a link for you

860
00:51:42,641 --> 00:51:46,511
for you to find that
content yeah and so then

861
00:51:46,535 --> 00:51:50,332
I got so that because
there was a few people

862
00:51:50,420 --> 00:51:52,732
engaging on the same
hashtag for an unlimited

863
00:51:52,756 --> 00:51:55,132
period of time that
generated some interesting

864
00:51:55,133 --> 00:51:58,586
conversations um and
so there's things you can

865
00:51:58,610 --> 00:52:02,012
do like that that are
completely human driven

866
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:04,798
they're actually
allowing you to like make

867
00:52:04,822 --> 00:52:07,047
connections and make
friends rather than it being

868
00:52:07,048 --> 00:52:09,443
completely the look
of the draw like will this

869
00:52:09,467 --> 00:52:12,092
actually get shown to
the people that I want it to

870
00:52:12,093 --> 00:52:15,385
get shown to yeah kind
of what I'm getting at

871
00:52:15,409 --> 00:52:18,652
though I think kind
of the intentionality of

872
00:52:20,075 --> 00:52:24,159
things like Twitter or
TikTok algorithmically

873
00:52:24,183 --> 00:52:28,012
driven sites it's a
push pull kind of thing

874
00:52:30,090 --> 00:52:33,872
it's to me it is a negative
thing but it's also

875
00:52:33,896 --> 00:52:37,852
keeps you there because
you have an audience that

876
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,933
is pretty consistent where
you know on on mastodon

877
00:52:42,957 --> 00:52:46,652
somebody might I mean
they're going to scroll

878
00:52:47,780 --> 00:52:50,932
do you know what I
mean you're gonna get lost

879
00:52:50,956 --> 00:52:54,320
in that kind of unless
you have people that only

880
00:52:54,321 --> 00:52:57,254
follow four or five people
and they're gonna go

881
00:52:57,278 --> 00:53:00,412
in and look at their feed
but I mean you know even

882
00:53:00,413 --> 00:53:04,306
on mastodon I'm falling
200 people you know 200

883
00:53:04,330 --> 00:53:08,332
accounts yeah two 300
accounts so like literally

884
00:53:08,420 --> 00:53:11,683
I'm not gonna scroll back
I'm not gonna get back

885
00:53:11,707 --> 00:53:15,040
to the beginning which
I think that's part of why

886
00:53:15,041 --> 00:53:17,727
my experience improved
a lot when I moved onto

887
00:53:17,751 --> 00:53:20,332
a Hometown server
where there's a local feed

888
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,588
well as the general
public feed so there's a

889
00:53:25,612 --> 00:53:29,440
smaller group of people
who are much more likely

890
00:53:29,441 --> 00:53:31,745
to see what I post
because some people are

891
00:53:31,769 --> 00:53:34,252
like literally only
looking at the local feed

892
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,551
or they don't follow
many people outside of

893
00:53:38,575 --> 00:53:42,252
the Hometown server
and they're I'm I fantasize

894
00:53:42,265 --> 00:53:45,880
about getting a group
of people together who I

895
00:53:45,904 --> 00:53:49,520
know from TikTok to
co-design a social network

896
00:53:49,521 --> 00:53:52,347
together using something
like there's this service

897
00:53:52,371 --> 00:53:54,812
called Bonfire that
allows you to create an

898
00:53:54,813 --> 00:53:58,748
activity pub server that
with whatever specific

899
00:53:58,772 --> 00:54:02,732
features and plugins
you wanted to have so like

900
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:08,190
I wish I had some examples in front of
me if the different things that a Bonfire

901
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,164
service can do but but
basically like you could

902
00:54:12,188 --> 00:54:15,280
then get a group of people
together and go how do

903
00:54:15,281 --> 00:54:18,668
we want our thing to
work not you should use

904
00:54:18,692 --> 00:54:22,080
this thing because it's
more ethical and you

905
00:54:22,081 --> 00:54:24,388
like you know being
like digital vegan about it

906
00:54:24,412 --> 00:54:26,720
but like what do you
actually want because like

907
00:54:26,721 --> 00:54:28,524
if you already know that
TikTok isn't necessarily

908
00:54:28,548 --> 00:54:30,252
giving you what you
want because it's oriented

909
00:54:30,253 --> 00:54:32,315
towards making people
famous and creating

910
00:54:32,339 --> 00:54:34,732
outreach outreach cycles
and that kind of thing

911
00:54:35,730 --> 00:54:37,910
and you're here posting
because you genuinely

912
00:54:37,934 --> 00:54:39,932
want community you're
not using community

913
00:54:39,970 --> 00:54:43,533
as a synonym for an
audience who will adore what I

914
00:54:43,557 --> 00:54:47,120
do but you want something
that like is mutualistic

915
00:54:47,121 --> 00:54:50,383
and community oriented
okay we've got to create

916
00:54:50,407 --> 00:54:53,600
that world together
then right like we need to

917
00:54:53,601 --> 00:54:57,108
engage in some collaborative
worldbuilding as well

918
00:54:57,132 --> 00:55:00,652
as like software design
and something like Bonfire

919
00:55:00,740 --> 00:55:03,638
would allow us to do
that but get Intrapology

920
00:55:03,662 --> 00:55:06,567
and previously the
community bookshop that was

921
00:55:06,568 --> 00:55:09,748
running kind of taught
me that that initial buy-in

922
00:55:09,772 --> 00:55:12,972
is so hard already and
then you've got to maintain

923
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,927
it well I mean you you
literally have people

924
00:55:16,951 --> 00:55:20,492
that are still on Facebook
yeah you know we don't

925
00:55:22,210 --> 00:55:26,213
leave these platforms um
uh Jamie and the chat uh

926
00:55:26,237 --> 00:55:30,172
made a pretty pretty
salient comment she says it

927
00:55:30,260 --> 00:55:33,629
feels though as even my
own followers are using

928
00:55:33,653 --> 00:55:36,892
Mastodon as a second
app or posse syndication

929
00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:39,960
platform more so than
a place to talk or interact

930
00:55:39,984 --> 00:55:42,732
on Bluesky and even
Twitter there are people

931
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:45,593
who constantly get
responded to see that's the

932
00:55:45,617 --> 00:55:48,412
thing I when it comes
to these different places

933
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:52,118
I want to have the
conversation but I don't I

934
00:55:52,142 --> 00:55:55,772
don't think that it
generate when it comes to

935
00:55:58,450 --> 00:56:02,330
Mastodon especially
again I just feel like that

936
00:56:02,354 --> 00:56:06,400
it's a very quiet place
yeah we're you're getting

937
00:56:06,401 --> 00:56:10,187
a lot of stuff thrown
out at you I mean that's

938
00:56:10,211 --> 00:56:14,092
kind of what Jamie's
saying um but not a lot of

939
00:56:14,130 --> 00:56:17,293
conversations that are
happening maybe that's just

940
00:56:17,317 --> 00:56:20,492
me I mean because the
difference between you and I

941
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:28,160
is you are on different servers I've so I'm
on Mastodon dot social now but I had my own

942
00:56:29,010 --> 00:56:32,847
instance in man that
was that was super lonely

943
00:56:32,871 --> 00:56:36,960
yeah yeah I'm benefiting
a lot from like a lot of

944
00:56:36,961 --> 00:56:40,953
work that people are
putting in the Merveilles community

945
00:56:40,977 --> 00:56:44,480
um to create something
that's that is quite

946
00:56:44,481 --> 00:56:46,548
generative and interactive
um I've not done the

947
00:56:46,572 --> 00:56:48,652
work to make that
happen I just benefit from it

948
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,654
something else that I don't
know how much time you

949
00:56:52,678 --> 00:56:55,852
got but something else
that I did want to get to

950
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,509
is um one of the projects
that you're involved

951
00:57:00,533 --> 00:57:04,012
with a Studio Voltaire
and Desperate Living

952
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,769
yeah um can you talk
about that yeah studio

953
00:57:09,793 --> 00:57:14,160
Voltaire is a really very
arts organization based in

954
00:57:14,161 --> 00:57:17,388
London um I feel when
I talk about like my art

955
00:57:17,412 --> 00:57:20,652
practitioners and kind
of the things that have

956
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:22,474
worked and the things
that have gone wrong I'm

957
00:57:22,498 --> 00:57:24,418
really negative about
London but actually I think

958
00:57:24,525 --> 00:57:26,930
Studio Voltaire is one
of the best partners I've

959
00:57:26,954 --> 00:57:29,372
worked with um so they
support a project called

960
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,391
Desperate Living run by
um Raju Rage um and one

961
00:57:35,415 --> 00:57:39,372
part of that project
was a well it's ongoing a

962
00:57:40,260 --> 00:57:43,148
online archive of trans
health resources that I

963
00:57:43,172 --> 00:57:46,012
built uh Raju approached
me about this because

964
00:57:47,835 --> 00:57:51,704
they uh seen my piece
um Cis Penance which is a

965
00:57:51,728 --> 00:57:55,772
interactive um set of
interviews with trans people

966
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,933
and they liked the um
that they liked the aesthetic

967
00:57:59,957 --> 00:58:02,800
of it in my approach
to it and they wanted

968
00:58:02,801 --> 00:58:06,148
me to bring something
similar to desperate

969
00:58:06,172 --> 00:58:10,012
living so I suggested
that we um go totally hand

970
00:58:10,050 --> 00:58:13,684
built uh on Neocities
um there's this is another

971
00:58:13,708 --> 00:58:17,120
thing where like I care
about this a lot and I

972
00:58:17,121 --> 00:58:19,174
feel like I'm not heard
on it very much um I

973
00:58:19,198 --> 00:58:21,447
tried to make the second
episode of Intrapology

974
00:58:21,448 --> 00:58:24,199
about this and it was
really hard to express um

975
00:58:24,223 --> 00:58:27,052
I think there's something
really beautiful about

976
00:58:27,860 --> 00:58:31,638
moving down in abstraction
layers with when you

977
00:58:31,662 --> 00:58:35,452
make things on the
internet like hand coding is

978
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,338
intrinsically a beautiful
activity and I care

979
00:58:40,362 --> 00:58:44,480
about more people doing
that I care about making

980
00:58:44,481 --> 00:58:47,056
things that someone can
imagine making themself

981
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,612
or someone can learn to
make them self um much

982
00:58:49,613 --> 00:58:53,178
more than I care about
with bang you know you put

983
00:58:53,202 --> 00:58:56,560
on a VR headset and
you're like wow um I don't

984
00:58:56,561 --> 00:59:00,144
find that artistically
interesting um I care

985
00:59:00,168 --> 00:59:04,160
that we live immersed
in multiple socio-technical

986
00:59:04,161 --> 00:59:07,234
systems and we need to
have more autonomy and

987
00:59:07,258 --> 00:59:10,400
control over them and
so that's a try and make

988
00:59:10,401 --> 00:59:13,742
that happen materially
and the things that I make

989
00:59:13,766 --> 00:59:17,040
so Desperate Living um
yeah it's completely hand

990
00:59:17,041 --> 00:59:20,627
coded uh website that
allows you to navigate a

991
00:59:20,651 --> 00:59:24,160
bunch of um trans
health resources that we've

992
00:59:24,161 --> 00:59:27,515
archived um we're still
adding new things uh

993
00:59:27,539 --> 00:59:31,200
one of the most recent
things that we added is a

994
00:59:31,201 --> 00:59:35,005
community-made audiobook
of Stone Butch Blues um again

995
00:59:35,029 --> 00:59:38,480
this is you know Raju Rage
put an enormous amount

996
00:59:38,481 --> 00:59:41,920
of work into this project
bringing together 27

997
00:59:41,944 --> 00:59:45,760
trans people to reach record
a chapter um and doing

998
00:59:45,761 --> 00:59:48,878
the audio editing on
that um so I just made a

999
00:59:48,902 --> 00:59:52,160
web page within Desperate
Living for that um at

1000
00:59:52,161 --> 00:59:55,146
that point I'd learned
more about web accessibility

1001
00:59:55,170 --> 00:59:57,932
as well um so that
prompted me to do a bit more

1002
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,908
work you know for for
an audiobook it better be

1003
01:00:01,932 --> 01:00:06,160
screen reader accessible
right um so I made sure that

1004
01:00:06,161 --> 01:00:08,841
the screen reader experience
at least you think you

1005
01:00:08,865 --> 01:00:11,452
know I tested it using
Orca which is Linux's

1006
01:00:11,453 --> 01:00:15,345
screen reader um so I
would still benefit from

1007
01:00:15,369 --> 01:00:19,372
some more testing on
all the platforms but um I

1008
01:00:19,970 --> 01:00:23,036
yeah I made sure that like
the screen reader experience

1009
01:00:23,060 --> 01:00:25,687
is logical and um actually
allows you to access

1010
01:00:25,688 --> 01:00:27,995
everything because I've
done some and I still need

1011
01:00:28,019 --> 01:00:30,252
to work on this on some
other pages on desperate

1012
01:00:30,253 --> 01:00:33,887
living I did this I have
this effect in there where

1013
01:00:33,911 --> 01:00:37,212
you hover over an
image so it look it it's all

1014
01:00:38,260 --> 01:00:41,535
it looks like black large
press stuff um which

1015
01:00:41,559 --> 01:00:45,120
form of t-shirt is um it's
black with like um high

1016
01:00:45,121 --> 01:00:48,182
contrast white images
right and then you can hover

1017
01:00:48,206 --> 01:00:50,972
over an image and the
information will appear

1018
01:00:50,973 --> 01:00:54,752
and you'll get a link to
download the resource um

1019
01:00:54,776 --> 01:00:58,800
it's beautiful it's really
weird with screen readers

1020
01:00:58,801 --> 01:01:00,646
so like this Stone
Butch Blues page I'm happy

1021
01:01:00,670 --> 01:01:02,647
with how that's working
now but now I need to go

1022
01:01:02,648 --> 01:01:04,539
back over the other
pages because what will

1023
01:01:04,563 --> 01:01:06,652
happen right now is the
screen reader will read

1024
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,068
things that you can't see
and that feels so odd um

1025
01:01:11,092 --> 01:01:15,132
I mean for so for some
blind users that's perfectly

1026
01:01:15,170 --> 01:01:17,653
in um but there's a lot
of people who like will

1027
01:01:17,677 --> 01:01:20,167
find it very confusing
because they're visually

1028
01:01:20,168 --> 01:01:22,049
impaired to the extent
that they benefit from

1029
01:01:22,073 --> 01:01:23,932
a screen reader but
they can still tell like

1030
01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:27,250
this is reading out
things that aren't on the

1031
01:01:27,274 --> 01:01:29,772
screen what's going on
so I need to figure out

1032
01:01:29,773 --> 01:01:33,028
how to make that work
better but there's something

1033
01:01:33,052 --> 01:01:36,332
about like being able to
step in and do that right

1034
01:01:36,370 --> 01:01:38,351
rather than just shrug
your shoulders and go I

1035
01:01:38,375 --> 01:01:40,412
don't know square
spaces just like that there's

1036
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,509
nothing I can do um like
well no I just go on like

1037
01:01:49,533 --> 01:01:53,440
Mozilla yeah like yeah
yeah uh god wigs but yeah

1038
01:01:53,441 --> 01:01:55,691
like okay I'm gonna learn
I'm gonna actually learn

1039
01:01:55,715 --> 01:01:57,927
how this works and so
that then I can consciously

1040
01:01:57,928 --> 01:02:00,836
think about what I want
that experience to be like

1041
01:02:00,860 --> 01:02:03,607
and try and implement
it and I'm not a computer

1042
01:02:03,608 --> 01:02:06,557
scientist I've got no
qualifications in web design

1043
01:02:06,581 --> 01:02:09,372
I'm in no position to be
teaching people how to

1044
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,425
make websites but I
love it um and I think it's

1045
01:02:14,449 --> 01:02:18,480
worth sharing that joy
um so Studio Voltaire has

1046
01:02:18,481 --> 01:02:22,432
me running a workshop
teaching other people how

1047
01:02:22,456 --> 01:02:26,252
to make hand-built
archives of their activism

1048
01:02:27,740 --> 01:02:31,455
and what have you um
and that's gonna be in late

1049
01:02:31,479 --> 01:02:35,040
November um I think in
October um registration

1050
01:02:35,041 --> 01:02:38,829
will be open for that
that like when I went to

1051
01:02:38,853 --> 01:02:42,572
when I visited that
site the Desperate Living

1052
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,717
and a Leslie Feinberg
Stone Butch Blues um page it

1053
01:02:50,741 --> 01:02:54,652
had it really for me as a
trans person I transitioned

1054
01:02:56,550 --> 01:03:00,225
in 2001 so when I started
hormones roughly um and

1055
01:03:00,249 --> 01:03:04,012
I had discussions with uh
we worked I wouldn't say

1056
01:03:04,980 --> 01:03:08,828
friends but uh we
talked uh Leslie I talked

1057
01:03:08,852 --> 01:03:12,892
to Leslie Feinberg and
um after Leslie passed

1058
01:03:15,490 --> 01:03:23,440
their partner um Minnie Bruce Pratt
was out there promoting uh Leslie's work

1059
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,919
and put the PDF out
for free and it so when

1060
01:03:29,943 --> 01:03:33,920
I when I went back last
night and was kind of

1061
01:03:33,921 --> 01:03:37,028
looking at the site it
kind of pinged all these

1062
01:03:37,052 --> 01:03:40,172
different things for
me as far as like the past

1063
01:03:45,790 --> 01:03:49,322
and um like how much
of that culture that we

1064
01:03:49,346 --> 01:03:53,052
kind of came together
and built is still there

1065
01:03:53,165 --> 01:03:56,930
but a lot of it disappearing
and I kind of have

1066
01:03:56,954 --> 01:04:00,652
to laugh because I can't
show you it right now

1067
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,991
because I haven't put
this all together but uh

1068
01:04:07,015 --> 01:04:10,972
so essentially back in
2001 September of 2001

1069
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,762
to be exact um I was
in a chat on uh a website

1070
01:04:16,786 --> 01:04:20,652
called GABC and it was
an online radio show

1071
01:04:20,765 --> 01:04:23,762
for the LGBT community
um and this is something

1072
01:04:23,786 --> 01:04:26,732
too that ties into what
you were talking about

1073
01:04:26,770 --> 01:04:29,653
in terms of your frustration
because one of the

1074
01:04:29,677 --> 01:04:32,572
things that I've told
you but I want to kind of

1075
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,177
reinforce here is your
project is a major and

1076
01:04:37,201 --> 01:04:41,372
Intrapology is fucking
amazing I just think that

1077
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,381
it was something that
hit at the wrong time so

1078
01:04:47,405 --> 01:04:51,612
much about things like
this even like with mastodon

1079
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:55,434
I feel like it's not
the time for it yet it's

1080
01:04:55,458 --> 01:04:59,360
almost the time for it
but not yet and I had an

1081
01:04:59,361 --> 01:05:02,392
experience with something
like this because after

1082
01:05:02,416 --> 01:05:05,212
GABC that's kind of
what inspired me to start

1083
01:05:05,213 --> 01:05:08,592
this show um I
started a website called

1084
01:05:08,616 --> 01:05:12,892
transistor radio and I did
a show with Becky Duro

1085
01:05:15,410 --> 01:05:19,417
who was a trans woman
sadly she's fast on but

1086
01:05:19,441 --> 01:05:23,372
um in 2001 ish we
started doing a radio show

1087
01:05:24,130 --> 01:05:28,385
called TSR Live and that
transformed into I started

1088
01:05:28,409 --> 01:05:32,092
a project with a friend
of mine his name was

1089
01:05:32,155 --> 01:05:35,624
Christian and who did
uh outlet radio which

1090
01:05:35,648 --> 01:05:39,360
was an LGBT station
and they did circuit candy

1091
01:05:39,361 --> 01:05:42,571
was like dance music
and that kind of thing had

1092
01:05:42,595 --> 01:05:46,080
different sub-channels
but transistor radio was one

1093
01:05:46,081 --> 01:05:49,195
of those sub-channels
did a lot of work on that

1094
01:05:49,219 --> 01:05:52,412
but one of the things
that I realized especially

1095
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:56,002
like with Christian stuff
Christian had a show and

1096
01:05:56,026 --> 01:05:59,612
he was brilliant at what
he did but it was just who

1097
01:06:01,390 --> 01:06:04,958
early uh hit the concept
of like what he was

1098
01:06:04,982 --> 01:06:09,040
doing he was a master
at in fact he took that kind

1099
01:06:09,041 --> 01:06:13,099
of experience and he moved
Tennessee from Washington

1100
01:06:13,123 --> 01:06:16,412
DC where I knew him
and we worked together

1101
01:06:16,550 --> 01:06:19,776
he moved from Washington
DC to Tennessee and took

1102
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,960
a job working at the
local uh new station he was

1103
01:06:22,961 --> 01:06:26,336
a I think he was a producer
but same type of skill

1104
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,600
set you know he was a
creative had to constantly

1105
01:06:29,601 --> 01:06:32,924
be going out there and
put out stories and stuff

1106
01:06:32,948 --> 01:06:36,492
um but literally the product
that he was delivering

1107
01:06:37,130 --> 01:06:40,541
was fucking solid it was
funny it was entertaining

1108
01:06:40,565 --> 01:06:43,852
it was engaging it was it
was community building

1109
01:06:44,660 --> 01:06:47,610
at the same time it was
too early it just wasn't

1110
01:06:47,634 --> 01:06:50,412
the right time you know
if he would have come

1111
01:06:50,413 --> 01:06:53,588
out with that show just
five years six years later

1112
01:06:53,612 --> 01:06:56,492
it would have been
the right time but it just

1113
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:03,528
wasn't it wasn't the right
time um but what you

1114
01:07:03,552 --> 01:07:07,452
put together is kind of
phenomenal to a certain

1115
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:13,950
extent I understand
your frustration but at the

1116
01:07:13,974 --> 01:07:17,852
same time you're doing
this for art sake as well as

1117
01:07:17,940 --> 01:07:20,763
do you know what I mean
so I mean yeah my wife and

1118
01:07:20,787 --> 01:07:23,452
I have been in this
conversation about what art

1119
01:07:24,855 --> 01:07:28,361
is and all these there
because I'll be honest with

1120
01:07:28,385 --> 01:07:31,680
you I have a very
contentious kind of view when

1121
01:07:31,681 --> 01:07:35,077
it comes to AI because
I'm not totally against

1122
01:07:35,101 --> 01:07:38,732
it and I'm not totally
for it I kind of have this

1123
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,745
middle position on it
recently I've listened to

1124
01:07:42,769 --> 01:07:46,812
a podcast by Tracie Harris
called At Home in Your

1125
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:53,007
Head, she talks about
AI and you know her

1126
01:07:53,031 --> 01:07:57,292
conversation around
that is like a recent episode

1127
01:07:57,430 --> 01:08:01,263
she was like you know
the damage that something

1128
01:08:01,287 --> 01:08:05,052
does to the environment
we have this idea that

1129
01:08:05,115 --> 01:08:08,703
AI has this huge damage
to the environment but

1130
01:08:08,727 --> 01:08:12,160
we don't apply that
to the vehicles to motor

1131
01:08:12,161 --> 01:08:15,455
vehicles we've those
that literally is one of the

1132
01:08:15,479 --> 01:08:18,640
biggest uh never learned
to drive for precisely

1133
01:08:18,641 --> 01:08:22,007
this reason though so this
is why I've landed where

1134
01:08:22,031 --> 01:08:25,212
I have I think um yeah I
hear the outlier though

1135
01:08:25,250 --> 01:08:28,314
I mean yeah yeah it's
not common um but you

1136
01:08:28,338 --> 01:08:31,772
know we do but then
there are other things we do

1137
01:08:32,580 --> 01:08:35,734
to limit the calm done
by motor vehicles right

1138
01:08:35,758 --> 01:08:39,132
like we have the you know
the ultra low emissions

1139
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,918
on in London and like we
um have not what we tried

1140
01:08:44,942 --> 01:08:48,732
to do yeah um but you
know there's there's so

1141
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:56,137
much um discussion in
um like new urbanism or

1142
01:08:56,161 --> 01:09:00,411
whatever in the United
States of what we need to do

1143
01:09:00,425 --> 01:09:04,720
is build the alternative right and then
we can get people out with their cars

1144
01:09:05,575 --> 01:09:09,520
when you have really low availability of
public transport you're forced into car use

1145
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,900
when you have high
availability of public

1146
01:09:11,924 --> 01:09:14,491
transport car use becomes
optional right her her

1147
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:22,129
idea around uh AI was
that it's not cut and dry

1148
01:09:22,153 --> 01:09:26,000
and it's not like uh this
conversation that we

1149
01:09:26,001 --> 01:09:29,474
want to talk about the
bad things but there's

1150
01:09:29,498 --> 01:09:33,371
also a lot of good things
around um as far as like

1151
01:09:34,790 --> 01:09:38,343
trauma and uh uh you
know there are people that

1152
01:09:38,367 --> 01:09:41,920
are doing a lot of work
around their own trauma

1153
01:09:41,921 --> 01:09:44,920
where they don't
have people as they can

1154
01:09:44,944 --> 01:09:48,331
talk to but they're
literally these AI driven

1155
01:09:49,850 --> 01:09:53,558
bots that are having that
conversation with them

1156
01:09:53,582 --> 01:09:57,612
that no one else or you
know I mean it's it's a very

1157
01:09:57,650 --> 01:10:01,333
interesting kind of
opposition to yeah I mean

1158
01:10:01,357 --> 01:10:05,040
I think I'm actually
I'm just trying to check

1159
01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:06,874
in with myself because
I hope I'm not like

1160
01:10:06,898 --> 01:10:09,047
hardening it doing that
thing where like you take

1161
01:10:09,048 --> 01:10:11,655
opposite positions and
then you're hardening your

1162
01:10:11,679 --> 01:10:14,092
position right um but
well that's where I was

1163
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:18,119
before so I kind of
we've heard this episode

1164
01:10:18,143 --> 01:10:22,160
she's Tracie is somebody
that I really enjoy her

1165
01:10:22,161 --> 01:10:26,148
content I don't are you
familiar with her at all

1166
01:10:26,172 --> 01:10:30,172
now not told no uh she
used to be on the atheist

1167
01:10:32,480 --> 01:10:36,333
experience um she had
a show called Godless

1168
01:10:36,357 --> 01:10:40,492
bitches and uh basically
she left because they

1169
01:10:41,650 --> 01:10:45,613
platformed a fucking
transphobe and literally they

1170
01:10:45,637 --> 01:10:49,612
had conversation she has
one of the most brilliant

1171
01:10:49,700 --> 01:10:53,007
conversations around
um trans women in sports

1172
01:10:53,031 --> 01:10:56,572
that I think I've ever
heard her and gen peoples

1173
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:05,040
but it just it made me think uh it's one of
those times where I would step back and go

1174
01:11:05,915 --> 01:11:09,278
because I kind of feel
like uh I'm not a vegan

1175
01:11:09,302 --> 01:11:12,972
but I kind of feel like
you know the stereotypical

1176
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,802
idea that we have around
veganism and people

1177
01:11:17,826 --> 01:11:20,412
being oh you're eating
me uh huh you know

1178
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,165
and I feel like that
kind of that kind of one

1179
01:11:24,189 --> 01:11:27,132
really important
distinction would be that like

1180
01:11:27,220 --> 01:11:29,878
veganism is about what
you're not doing and we can

1181
01:11:29,902 --> 01:11:32,572
talk about our relationship
to technology in terms

1182
01:11:33,015 --> 01:11:36,692
of um in in a positive
sense in terms of what

1183
01:11:36,716 --> 01:11:40,652
we are doing right no no
no 100% 100% I do think

1184
01:11:40,715 --> 01:11:43,950
that comes into play
I'm starting to get a more

1185
01:11:43,974 --> 01:11:47,292
nuanced kind of not
nuanced but just challenging

1186
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:51,681
myself and trying not
to be that um you know

1187
01:11:51,705 --> 01:11:55,612
I uh essentially uh
someone that's a whole

1188
01:11:56,940 --> 01:12:00,730
bloodite and did you know
that um so because there

1189
01:12:00,754 --> 01:12:04,252
are things uh probably
the biggest the biggest

1190
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:12,652
thing in terms of um things that aren't
needed that we engage in is defense spending

1191
01:12:13,330 --> 01:12:15,877
do you know what I mean
the world would be a much

1192
01:12:15,901 --> 01:12:18,252
better place if we didn't
spend as much money

1193
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:22,250
in terms of the United
States in terms of the

1194
01:12:22,274 --> 01:12:26,012
UK like no one's gonna
no one's gonna invade

1195
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,951
the UK I'm sorry to
inform everyone in England

1196
01:12:31,975 --> 01:12:35,920
but yeah I truly believe
that like UK defense

1197
01:12:35,921 --> 01:12:38,801
spending is about um
defending our material

1198
01:12:38,825 --> 01:12:41,852
interests in countries
that aren't ours right

1199
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:45,960
yes specifically the United
States I think um but

1200
01:12:45,984 --> 01:12:48,960
in terms of like that
example of it's used for

1201
01:12:48,961 --> 01:12:51,598
therapy um I think we
should be super careful about

1202
01:12:51,622 --> 01:12:54,012
that and I that's not
where I would go looking

1203
01:12:54,013 --> 01:12:57,504
for nuance personally um
so what's being described

1204
01:12:57,528 --> 01:13:00,412
there is a gap in
the social fabric right

1205
01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:03,029
there isn't there
isn't the availability of

1206
01:13:03,053 --> 01:13:05,772
therapy services and
socially we we don't have

1207
01:13:05,910 --> 01:13:09,023
the capability to take
care of each other with

1208
01:13:09,047 --> 01:13:12,160
that kind of um mental
health issue um for the

1209
01:13:12,161 --> 01:13:14,373
most part people aren't
able to do that this is why

1210
01:13:14,397 --> 01:13:16,487
people don't have anyone
to talk to I think when

1211
01:13:16,488 --> 01:13:19,143
we use AI to fill in a
gap in the social fabric

1212
01:13:19,167 --> 01:13:22,012
that's extremely dangerous
because that is putting

1213
01:13:22,013 --> 01:13:25,338
us at risk of becoming
dependent on one of these

1214
01:13:25,362 --> 01:13:28,572
corporations on one of
these mass surveillance

1215
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,824
businesses to fill in
that gap and we're

1216
01:13:32,848 --> 01:13:37,200
already seeing with social
media how detrimental

1217
01:13:37,201 --> 01:13:39,953
it is when we are dependent
on these corporations

1218
01:13:39,977 --> 01:13:42,572
for these social functions
that we should have

1219
01:13:42,573 --> 01:13:45,771
control over and we
should also really question

1220
01:13:45,795 --> 01:13:49,292
whether there's tool
which is essentially a journal

1221
01:13:49,305 --> 01:13:52,416
in that in that application
right because the

1222
01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:55,760
AI agent is not a person
and allowing someone to

1223
01:13:55,761 --> 01:13:59,159
believe that it's a person
um it seems cruel to

1224
01:13:59,183 --> 01:14:02,800
me when they're in a
vulnerable position like that

1225
01:14:02,801 --> 01:14:05,032
so it's a journaling
tool you are writing to

1226
01:14:05,056 --> 01:14:07,452
yourself in order to
reflect on your own trauma

1227
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,623
and process it also
journaling tool needs to

1228
01:14:11,647 --> 01:14:15,692
be okay no you disagree
go on well uh because

1229
01:14:15,705 --> 01:14:19,138
if I write in a journal
I'm not going to

1230
01:14:19,162 --> 01:14:23,212
because I've had an
expert I've had experiences

1231
01:14:25,500 --> 01:14:28,964
where I've had a
self-reflect because of

1232
01:14:28,988 --> 01:14:32,812
something that the the
the AI came back with

1233
01:14:32,900 --> 01:14:36,979
the kind of question
I'll give you an example

1234
01:14:37,003 --> 01:14:40,732
I've been working on
one of my um nass uh

1235
01:14:42,210 --> 01:14:45,306
I built it myself uh
network a test storage and

1236
01:14:45,330 --> 01:14:48,560
I was thinking about
just ditching it and getting

1237
01:14:48,561 --> 01:14:51,392
another one and why it
wasn't working and everything

1238
01:14:51,416 --> 01:14:53,932
like that and I was
having a conversation with

1239
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:58,017
it trying to work out
kind of where the problem

1240
01:14:58,041 --> 01:15:01,932
was and it's it wasn't
something because I would

1241
01:15:02,850 --> 01:15:06,975
have chased this with
money putting different parts

1242
01:15:06,999 --> 01:15:10,800
and things in that it
didn't need um and I kind

1243
01:15:10,801 --> 01:15:13,690
of feel like that if you're
talking about if you're

1244
01:15:13,714 --> 01:15:16,332
talking I understand
what you're saying as far

1245
01:15:16,495 --> 01:15:19,865
as therapy goes that
there is a gap but that gap

1246
01:15:19,889 --> 01:15:23,132
does exist and there
are people that are being

1247
01:15:24,130 --> 01:15:27,892
I agree the caveats to
what you're saying but I

1248
01:15:27,916 --> 01:15:32,012
also think that the people
that are being helped by

1249
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,974
having that kind of
reflective process um we

1250
01:15:37,998 --> 01:15:42,160
look at the negatives
of this but we're not also

1251
01:15:42,161 --> 01:15:45,440
evaluating I think a
lot of times we're not

1252
01:15:45,464 --> 01:15:49,280
evaluating and there's
there's there's I feel like

1253
01:15:49,281 --> 01:15:52,164
maybe it's because
I'm old but I kind of feel

1254
01:15:52,188 --> 01:15:55,212
like uh there's been this
process in my head of

1255
01:15:55,250 --> 01:15:58,133
like when I was because
I was born in 67 so like

1256
01:15:58,157 --> 01:16:01,052
in the 80s you'd have
people saying well there's

1257
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:09,760
television is uh brooding children and
uh but like I I feel like this is like this

1258
01:16:10,820 --> 01:16:12,561
threat that keeps getting
thrown at us of like

1259
01:16:12,585 --> 01:16:14,492
well people were skeptical
of the internet as well

1260
01:16:14,493 --> 01:16:17,122
and it's like fight but I
don't want to be I I feel

1261
01:16:17,146 --> 01:16:19,847
it's manipulative I'm not
saying you're manipulating

1262
01:16:19,848 --> 01:16:22,125
me I feel like we're
being manipulated to be

1263
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:24,812
afraid of being left
behind right and it's like I'm

1264
01:16:24,813 --> 01:16:27,854
actually I'm very
closely engaged with my

1265
01:16:27,878 --> 01:16:31,692
technical environment
as are you right like I'm not

1266
01:16:32,315 --> 01:16:35,651
going to be left behind
just because I'm looking at

1267
01:16:35,675 --> 01:16:38,892
this thing critically and
deciding to move slowly

1268
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,174
right well um yeah I
agree 100% I just think

1269
01:16:45,198 --> 01:16:49,532
there's a tendency for
people especially on the left

1270
01:16:49,570 --> 01:16:53,050
of the spectrum to
kind of um look at these

1271
01:16:53,074 --> 01:16:56,892
things in a very black
and white way that's not

1272
01:16:58,250 --> 01:17:02,152
re I know I'm not even
going to say that I myself

1273
01:17:02,176 --> 01:17:06,012
personally I feel like I
have I feel like I have

1274
01:17:06,125 --> 01:17:09,081
said you know this is
bullshit you know it's

1275
01:17:09,105 --> 01:17:12,412
ruining the environment
blah blah blah but in the

1276
01:17:12,525 --> 01:17:15,926
context you know that's
why when I watched what

1277
01:17:15,950 --> 01:17:19,292
Tracie was saying it
made me kind of reflect on

1278
01:17:20,090 --> 01:17:24,083
my own kind of beliefs
yeah I definitely don't

1279
01:17:24,107 --> 01:17:27,852
I'm not saying that
I think it's the savior

1280
01:17:27,940 --> 01:17:31,511
of the world right I just
want to finish my point

1281
01:17:31,535 --> 01:17:34,960
about that like um so
first of all that benefit

1282
01:17:34,961 --> 01:17:38,177
can exist but we also
should think about how we

1283
01:17:38,201 --> 01:17:41,280
want to what tools are
required for us to get

1284
01:17:41,281 --> 01:17:44,116
that benefit and do they
have to be connected

1285
01:17:44,140 --> 01:17:47,040
to the cloud do they
have to involve extremely

1286
01:17:47,041 --> 01:17:50,948
large models that are
really energy intensive and

1287
01:17:50,972 --> 01:17:54,800
do they have to involve
the um the participation

1288
01:17:54,801 --> 01:17:58,003
of these massive
corporations like at all like

1289
01:17:58,027 --> 01:18:01,440
that it seems like the
like the technical problem

1290
01:18:01,441 --> 01:18:04,744
that you're describing
um like using an AI for

1291
01:18:04,768 --> 01:18:08,000
troubleshooting I think
does require a fairly

1292
01:18:08,001 --> 01:18:11,619
large data set right
um that said oh god I'm

1293
01:18:11,643 --> 01:18:15,840
getting too distracted
now right so the thing about

1294
01:18:15,841 --> 01:18:19,045
that that example that
you gave it's like right

1295
01:18:19,069 --> 01:18:22,000
now the machine is
tuned to guide you to an

1296
01:18:22,001 --> 01:18:24,141
elegant solution that
does not involve buying

1297
01:18:24,165 --> 01:18:26,652
something that's going
to change real fast yeah like

1298
01:18:26,653 --> 01:18:30,024
that's going to be one of
the first things to change

1299
01:18:30,048 --> 01:18:33,052
yeah it's almost like
it's almost like Twitter

1300
01:18:33,940 --> 01:18:37,330
2012 did or yeah yeah
so they haven't yet yeah

1301
01:18:37,354 --> 01:18:41,040
they haven't yet made
that intervention to be like

1302
01:18:41,041 --> 01:18:43,878
oh the AI needs to tell
you to buy something but

1303
01:18:43,902 --> 01:18:46,812
they will do that really
soon um when it comes to

1304
01:18:46,813 --> 01:18:50,315
like the therapy
application I want a tool like

1305
01:18:50,339 --> 01:18:54,092
that to run locally for
the users privacy right um

1306
01:18:54,130 --> 01:18:57,359
I want it to run as
lightweight as possible um it

1307
01:18:57,383 --> 01:19:00,480
used to be like 15 20
years ago you would build

1308
01:19:00,481 --> 01:19:03,614
software to use as few
resources as possible and

1309
01:19:03,638 --> 01:19:06,640
we don't do that anymore
and that's a terrible

1310
01:19:06,641 --> 01:19:12,800
crime right we don't have the resources
to pour into this giant machine right now

1311
01:19:12,900 --> 01:19:15,618
and a lot of the time
it's not necessary and I

1312
01:19:15,642 --> 01:19:18,492
think that the new ones
and the middle ground on

1313
01:19:18,493 --> 01:19:22,470
AI will be and there's a
I have seen really good

1314
01:19:22,494 --> 01:19:26,412
um arguments against
the point in about to make

1315
01:19:26,450 --> 01:19:29,786
but um the new ones is
probably going to be around

1316
01:19:29,810 --> 01:19:32,892
use local models right
um make sure you own it

1317
01:19:32,930 --> 01:19:36,375
if running on your
machine make sure you own

1318
01:19:36,399 --> 01:19:40,092
the data um and don't
build dependency right um

1319
01:19:40,105 --> 01:19:43,369
so now that said there
is currently an enormous

1320
01:19:43,393 --> 01:19:46,252
divide in the Linux
community around this

1321
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:51,128
I don't fully understand
the details but um

1322
01:19:51,152 --> 01:19:55,372
Linux and Ubuntu um and
you know I imagine quite

1323
01:19:56,875 --> 01:20:00,511
a few other distros are
adopting a middle ground

1324
01:20:00,535 --> 01:20:04,400
position on AI where um
oh Mozilla as well um where

1325
01:20:04,401 --> 01:20:06,719
yes they are using AI but
they're making it private

1326
01:20:06,743 --> 01:20:08,892
they're making it run
locally and all that kind

1327
01:20:08,893 --> 01:20:11,911
of thing and there's a
lot of people who have

1328
01:20:11,935 --> 01:20:15,452
really good reasons to be
opposed to that as well um

1329
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:21,440
but yeah I think that's where the new ones
is I don't think the new ones is oh well

1330
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,009
this application of
this big horrific machine

1331
01:20:25,033 --> 01:20:28,160
um has been really
positive I think the new ones

1332
01:20:28,161 --> 01:20:31,808
is can we get the benefit
without the big horrific

1333
01:20:31,832 --> 01:20:35,052
machine right well
and uh I hate to say this

1334
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:41,028
but uh and this has
probably been about a year

1335
01:20:41,052 --> 01:20:45,052
or two years ago um the
uh China came out with

1336
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,704
a competitive product
against ChatGPT that ran

1337
01:20:50,728 --> 01:20:54,812
better that that is much
cheaper and uh I kind of

1338
01:20:54,900 --> 01:20:57,838
feel like that I kind of
feel like you know I'm

1339
01:20:57,862 --> 01:21:00,812
not I'm not going to
sit here and say that I at

1340
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:06,786
100% support the CCP
uh but I feel like that the

1341
01:21:06,810 --> 01:21:10,892
problem in this what
you're talking about inherent

1342
01:21:10,930 --> 01:21:14,382
in the problem it it draws
me back to like when

1343
01:21:14,406 --> 01:21:18,080
Brexit happened here
there were people saying well

1344
01:21:18,081 --> 01:21:21,709
what if it was a left
Brexit what if uh but the

1345
01:21:21,733 --> 01:21:25,452
reality of the situation
is that that's not what

1346
01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:29,381
happened because capitalism
you know you know you

1347
01:21:29,405 --> 01:21:33,132
know I mean this is being
used by people in this

1348
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:37,049
country to do what
the capitalist people in

1349
01:21:37,073 --> 01:21:41,452
positions of power want
and I kind of feel like it's

1350
01:21:41,540 --> 01:21:45,151
the same thing with AI
it's a capitalism problem

1351
01:21:45,175 --> 01:21:48,560
um because you're
you're right I mean I'll be

1352
01:21:48,561 --> 01:21:51,895
honest with you I'm
experimenting now with LLMs

1353
01:21:51,919 --> 01:21:55,040
that are local I think
it's called Ollama

1354
01:21:55,041 --> 01:22:03,040
yeah um that's kind of where I want to
go in terms of automating I'm using n8n

1355
01:22:03,940 --> 01:22:07,171
to automate um one
of the websites that I'm

1356
01:22:07,195 --> 01:22:10,892
working on right now
is called uh StillNotTrans

1357
01:22:11,700 --> 01:22:15,162
and and what it is is
just posts about pastors

1358
01:22:15,186 --> 01:22:18,812
about coaches about all
these people that aren't

1359
01:22:18,875 --> 01:22:22,185
trans that are going out
and being predators you

1360
01:22:22,209 --> 01:22:25,532
know what I mean the
people that are that aren't

1361
01:22:27,170 --> 01:22:31,093
being looked at um but
what I'm trying to do with

1362
01:22:31,117 --> 01:22:34,732
uh n8n is go in and
automate this process

1363
01:22:34,845 --> 01:22:37,741
so it will automatically
post these stories that I

1364
01:22:37,765 --> 01:22:40,732
can go in and then go
click click click click click

1365
01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:45,285
and and post them uh in a
very automated way because

1366
01:22:45,309 --> 01:22:48,812
essentially what I want
is a big old database

1367
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,904
of cis people I can go
here's your problem it's

1368
01:22:53,928 --> 01:22:58,012
not trans people you know
I mean that's the whole

1369
01:22:58,150 --> 01:23:01,523
point of doing it I do
think that but it's something

1370
01:23:01,547 --> 01:23:04,412
that I want to do
locally it's not something

1371
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:09,536
one of the problems
that I had initially was

1372
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:13,692
that it wanted um meet
to put in tokens to from

1373
01:23:14,900 --> 01:23:17,529
the company that runs
Claude forget the name of

1374
01:23:17,553 --> 01:23:20,252
it but um Anthropic
yeah they wanted me

1375
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:24,184
to have tokens that way
and I was like you know

1376
01:23:24,208 --> 01:23:28,332
what fuck this no yeah
um yeah but that being said

1377
01:23:29,300 --> 01:23:32,213
the intentionality is
what's important for me

1378
01:23:32,237 --> 01:23:35,292
and uh and apparently
from I think that's where

1379
01:23:37,370 --> 01:23:41,355
you're going to is the
intent with a lot of these

1380
01:23:41,379 --> 01:23:45,132
AI especially uh Anthropic
and it's capitalism

1381
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:47,930
and you're right
you're 100% right that is

1382
01:23:47,954 --> 01:23:50,252
where it's going I mean
you even have google

1383
01:23:51,060 --> 01:23:54,638
Gemini like they're
transforming their search

1384
01:23:54,662 --> 01:23:58,252
to do the same thing
that it's done and doing

1385
01:23:59,405 --> 01:24:02,958
but in an AI format so
you know the the analogy

1386
01:24:02,982 --> 01:24:06,080
with cars I think
it's really it's really

1387
01:24:06,081 --> 01:24:09,433
generative if read the
other way where it's like

1388
01:24:09,457 --> 01:24:12,892
the problem with cars is
that the world around us

1389
01:24:12,930 --> 01:24:15,722
was constructed over
the course of the 20th

1390
01:24:15,746 --> 01:24:18,812
century in a way that
made us dependent on them

1391
01:24:19,515 --> 01:24:22,194
and it got to the point
where we didn't have

1392
01:24:22,218 --> 01:24:24,972
a choice and the cat
the antidote to it is us

1393
01:24:26,100 --> 01:24:29,030
providing help like
mutually to each other to

1394
01:24:29,054 --> 01:24:31,927
help each other get
around without this same

1395
01:24:31,928 --> 01:24:34,773
number of cars and
that could even just be

1396
01:24:34,797 --> 01:24:38,400
carpooling right um and I
think we need to be mindful

1397
01:24:38,401 --> 01:24:41,967
of the same thing around
AI like the world around

1398
01:24:41,991 --> 01:24:45,120
us is being reshaped
to um I mean hopefully

1399
01:24:45,121 --> 01:24:47,459
they'll fail and the bubble
will burst before this

1400
01:24:47,483 --> 01:24:49,692
actually gets completely
you know embedded into

1401
01:24:49,693 --> 01:24:53,353
our lives but I can see
everywhere that they are

1402
01:24:53,377 --> 01:24:57,280
building dependency on
AI so that um we're not just

1403
01:24:57,281 --> 01:25:00,884
using their product because
it's convenient they they

1404
01:25:00,908 --> 01:25:04,252
not using the product is
becoming less convenient

1405
01:25:04,340 --> 01:25:07,472
right or like not using
the product will lose

1406
01:25:07,496 --> 01:25:10,572
you your job and that
kind of thing um if we

1407
01:25:11,365 --> 01:25:13,650
it's not enough for us
to just be really angry

1408
01:25:13,674 --> 01:25:16,172
about AI and shame each
other for using it we have

1409
01:25:16,260 --> 01:25:19,039
to make sure we're
building and maintaining the

1410
01:25:19,063 --> 01:25:22,087
alternative uh one problem
that I keep running into

1411
01:25:22,088 --> 01:25:25,028
when it comes to like
solving a technical problem

1412
01:25:25,052 --> 01:25:28,012
is it's always been
horrible to ask for technical

1413
01:25:28,013 --> 01:25:31,180
help on the internet right
like people have always

1414
01:25:31,204 --> 01:25:34,320
been rude about it but it
feels worse now because

1415
01:25:34,321 --> 01:25:37,194
now when someone says
this is very googleable I

1416
01:25:37,218 --> 01:25:40,407
have to sit there and go
well I stopped using google

1417
01:25:40,408 --> 01:25:43,091
because I don't want
to use its AI right so now

1418
01:25:43,115 --> 01:25:45,932
I use start page and when
I searched this problem

1419
01:25:45,933 --> 01:25:48,900
on start page I only got
four results and those

1420
01:25:48,924 --> 01:25:51,852
results led me to this
subreddit where I asked

1421
01:25:51,890 --> 01:25:54,860
to this question so what
I'm being told now by

1422
01:25:54,884 --> 01:25:57,920
human beings I'm trying
to ask human beings for

1423
01:25:57,921 --> 01:26:00,244
help for the technical
problem because I believe

1424
01:26:00,268 --> 01:26:02,647
that that is what we should
be doing we should be

1425
01:26:02,648 --> 01:26:05,132
reaching out for help
from other human beings

1426
01:26:05,156 --> 01:26:07,772
and building supportive
networks for each other

1427
01:26:07,910 --> 01:26:10,068
I'm asking human
beings for help and they're

1428
01:26:10,092 --> 01:26:12,412
telling me you could
use an AI for this why are

1429
01:26:12,413 --> 01:26:16,148
you wasting my time so
now I'm forced to go and

1430
01:26:16,172 --> 01:26:19,692
use the AI because
socially we're destroying

1431
01:26:19,730 --> 01:26:23,920
the structures that allow us to help
each other without relying on this machine

1432
01:26:27,420 --> 01:26:30,998
well and yes I think that
would I think what you're

1433
01:26:31,022 --> 01:26:34,332
kind of pointing to is
these abstraction layers

1434
01:26:35,290 --> 01:26:38,953
upon on top of I mean
you're talking about one

1435
01:26:38,977 --> 01:26:42,652
layer is AI but then
underneath that is search

1436
01:26:43,780 --> 01:26:47,385
you know rather than
that underneath that

1437
01:26:47,409 --> 01:26:51,292
search there is Reddit
or you know an online

1438
01:26:51,430 --> 01:26:54,173
forum and what you're
looking at so you have these

1439
01:26:54,197 --> 01:26:56,732
layers of and it just
seems to be getting more

1440
01:26:58,995 --> 01:27:02,524
and more I think it's
a monetized yeah but I

1441
01:27:02,548 --> 01:27:06,332
do think well I mean
the hoping they'll get you

1442
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:13,048
want to try to write
they're not currently making

1443
01:27:13,072 --> 01:27:16,960
money but yeah I do
feel like it's it's something

1444
01:27:16,961 --> 01:27:20,628
that needs to have a
lot more intentional kind

1445
01:27:20,652 --> 01:27:24,332
of discussions like
we've just had about it so

1446
01:27:26,370 --> 01:27:33,920
I kind of wanted to finish up you have
talked about the importance of archiving

1447
01:27:36,045 --> 01:27:39,887
digital archiving for
the trans community for

1448
01:27:39,911 --> 01:27:43,852
the LGBTQ+ community
can you talk a little bit

1449
01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:48,824
about that in terms of
because kind of in getting

1450
01:27:48,848 --> 01:27:52,172
prepared for the show
and I haven't talked

1451
01:27:56,050 --> 01:28:00,202
about it much but I I
got pretty ill in 2024

1452
01:28:00,226 --> 01:28:04,012
and stopped doing
the show because of it

1453
01:28:05,460 --> 01:28:12,640
but in kind of preparing I'm still
working on it as you can tell from

1454
01:28:17,780 --> 01:28:21,436
the gelopy that I put
together so far it made

1455
01:28:21,460 --> 01:28:25,292
me reflect on how you
know I've been doing this

1456
01:28:28,250 --> 01:28:31,988
for 26 years in some former
fashion and it made me

1457
01:28:32,012 --> 01:28:35,612
reflect on how how much
ground that I've covered

1458
01:28:40,730 --> 01:28:44,354
because there's so much
about the the website

1459
01:28:44,378 --> 01:28:47,692
that I that I found
at TransAdvocate.com

1460
01:28:51,425 --> 01:28:55,624
it's kind of I don't I I
passed it on to a nonprofit

1461
01:28:55,648 --> 01:28:59,212
called Trans Houston
and Cristan Williams is

1462
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:03,530
the person that took
it over but it's been

1463
01:29:03,554 --> 01:29:07,680
kind of dormant for a
couple years it used to

1464
01:29:07,681 --> 01:29:10,915
have a lot more of a
voice in the community

1465
01:29:10,939 --> 01:29:14,412
but I feel like looking
back because I went on

1466
01:29:14,450 --> 01:29:17,966
archive.org yesterday
was researching my own

1467
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:21,372
website kind of looking
at the graphics that I

1468
01:29:22,255 --> 01:29:25,981
made I'm kind of glad
on some on some level

1469
01:29:26,005 --> 01:29:30,092
that they it doesn't
exist but sad on the other

1470
01:29:30,900 --> 01:29:34,238
because a lot of
that history is just it's

1471
01:29:34,262 --> 01:29:37,932
disappearing and yeah
a lot of the things that

1472
01:29:38,690 --> 01:29:41,581
that a lot of the rights
that we have today as

1473
01:29:41,605 --> 01:29:44,572
much as they're under
assault those things were

1474
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:50,713
attained by trans people
and those people aren't

1475
01:29:50,737 --> 01:29:54,652
talked about they're
forgotten and the history

1476
01:30:00,890 --> 01:30:04,634
is being rewritten unless
we have this kind of

1477
01:30:04,658 --> 01:30:08,252
archive of ourselves I
mean when I went back

1478
01:30:08,265 --> 01:30:12,286
I found recordings from
I specifically two shows

1479
01:30:12,310 --> 01:30:16,092
but they were both on
archive.org in fact

1480
01:30:16,180 --> 01:30:18,988
after I get done editing
this and putting it to

1481
01:30:19,012 --> 01:30:21,772
podcast form I'm going
to put every show up on

1482
01:30:22,230 --> 01:30:26,098
archive.org so no
matter what happens to

1483
01:30:26,122 --> 01:30:30,092
this show in terms of
hosting if I pass on or

1484
01:30:30,820 --> 01:30:33,278
you know I get thrown
out on the street and don't

1485
01:30:33,302 --> 01:30:35,772
have money for funding
by the way you can support

1486
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,942
me on Patreon.com
 yeah links will be in

1487
01:30:39,966 --> 01:30:44,012
the show notes um but
if that were to happen

1488
01:30:45,950 --> 01:30:49,721
there is an archive
someplace that's not going

1489
01:30:49,745 --> 01:30:53,612
to go away that is so
freaking important for us

1490
01:30:53,750 --> 01:30:57,341
to know the history
that of a community that

1491
01:30:57,365 --> 01:31:01,132
I've been a part of for
like I said 2026 years

1492
01:31:01,830 --> 01:31:05,267
but so much people so
much of it that people

1493
01:31:05,291 --> 01:31:09,212
don't know about yeah
but so in terms of that what

1494
01:31:10,740 --> 01:31:14,276
are you talking about
you talk about on your

1495
01:31:14,300 --> 01:31:18,240
blog about archiving what
what what are you doing

1496
01:31:18,241 --> 01:31:21,983
around that um at the
moment it's my most of

1497
01:31:22,007 --> 01:31:25,920
what I'm doing around
that is Desperate Living

1498
01:31:25,921 --> 01:31:28,336
and um you know doing
this workshop in November

1499
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:30,887
to kind of help us make
our own personal websites

1500
01:31:30,888 --> 01:31:33,340
that archive stuff that's
otherwise on these

1501
01:31:33,364 --> 01:31:35,612
platforms that can
be quite ephemeral um

1502
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:38,428
the other the other cool
thing about archiving

1503
01:31:38,452 --> 01:31:40,332
the stuff you post on
social media is it becomes

1504
01:31:40,333 --> 01:31:43,414
more searchable right
like it's hard to find an

1505
01:31:43,438 --> 01:31:46,400
old Instagram post by
search um if you posted

1506
01:31:46,401 --> 01:31:48,699
the same thing on your
website it'll be a lot easier

1507
01:31:48,723 --> 01:31:50,812
for you to fight again
for other people to find

1508
01:31:51,980 --> 01:31:55,429
it again um what I've
done in the past is uh I

1509
01:31:55,453 --> 01:31:59,280
used to be senior curator
of a site called critical

1510
01:31:59,281 --> 01:32:02,624
distance um this was
not trans focused although

1511
01:32:02,648 --> 01:32:05,932
it was it was trans led
um but this was a site

1512
01:32:06,070 --> 01:32:08,759
that collects games
criticism um and it's

1513
01:32:08,783 --> 01:32:12,012
primary purpose which
just to help people to find

1514
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:17,077
interesting critical writing
on games um because

1515
01:32:17,101 --> 01:32:20,960
and this was started
back in 2009 um and then

1516
01:32:20,961 --> 01:32:23,635
there was a discovery
issue uh but back then

1517
01:32:23,659 --> 01:32:26,652
discovery issues could be
solved by people um and

1518
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:31,588
so we were set up to do
that when I took over a

1519
01:32:31,612 --> 01:32:35,852
senior curator in 2015 um
I got us to start archiving

1520
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:39,266
everything that we
linked to using a tool um

1521
01:32:39,290 --> 01:32:42,572
a plug-in that was uh
worked with WordPress

1522
01:32:42,635 --> 01:32:45,677
so it would send a copy
to archive to org but also

1523
01:32:45,701 --> 01:32:48,572
it would send a copy to
our own private archive

1524
01:32:48,935 --> 01:32:51,354
and I really wanted to
make that private archive

1525
01:32:51,378 --> 01:32:54,012
searchable but then the
WordPress tool the WordPress

1526
01:32:54,013 --> 01:32:56,956
plugin stopped working
the people have built it

1527
01:32:56,980 --> 01:33:00,012
lost their funding um
and as far as I know we're

1528
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:04,267
still stuck there I had I
left um at the board of

1529
01:33:04,291 --> 01:33:08,320
Critical Distance early
this year um because after

1530
01:33:08,321 --> 01:33:12,188
Intrapology I hit um
really bad burnout um just

1531
01:33:12,212 --> 01:33:16,092
before our last performance
I got covid and this

1532
01:33:16,180 --> 01:33:19,536
bout of log covid has left
me completely unable to

1533
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:23,132
work um with the exception
of like tiny little things

1534
01:33:23,170 --> 01:33:25,280
right like I can do this
work shop in November

1535
01:33:25,304 --> 01:33:27,612
because I planned it last
year so most of the work

1536
01:33:27,613 --> 01:33:31,191
has already done right
um so I don't know exactly

1537
01:33:31,215 --> 01:33:34,880
where we're at at Critical
Distance but I do think

1538
01:33:34,881 --> 01:33:38,019
that there's a lot of value
in doing something in

1539
01:33:38,043 --> 01:33:41,307
addition to archive.org
uh partly because archive.org

1540
01:33:41,395 --> 01:33:43,181
you know has been
on direct existential threat in

1541
01:33:43,205 --> 01:33:44,892
the past and I think it
probably will happen again

1542
01:33:44,893 --> 01:33:48,274
in the future um partly
because as I say like

1543
01:33:48,298 --> 01:33:51,920
when we had our own
private archive that had the

1544
01:33:51,921 --> 01:33:54,455
potential to become
searchable we just needed to

1545
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,132
find a software engineer
who would work with us to

1546
01:33:58,130 --> 01:34:01,453
create that search tool and
then we needed someone

1547
01:34:01,477 --> 01:34:04,400
to rebuild the broken
WordPress plugin which

1548
01:34:04,401 --> 01:34:07,673
to be fair was open source
so and theory anyone

1549
01:34:07,697 --> 01:34:11,052
could fix it um but someone
someone has to do it

1550
01:34:11,140 --> 01:34:14,039
we spoke to three
different software engineers

1551
01:34:14,063 --> 01:34:17,280
about this and um uh
everyone got quite intimidated

1552
01:34:17,281 --> 01:34:20,561
by the task um which is
really discouraging um so

1553
01:34:20,585 --> 01:34:24,000
there's a there's a problem
with this on all levels

1554
01:34:24,001 --> 01:34:26,890
right um there's the
the social problem of

1555
01:34:26,914 --> 01:34:30,080
like um we need people
to be doing the work on

1556
01:34:30,081 --> 01:34:32,176
recognizing that it's
necessary there's technical

1557
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:34,087
problems because the
tools that we use to do

1558
01:34:34,088 --> 01:34:36,913
the work stop working um
there's a funding problem

1559
01:34:36,937 --> 01:34:39,607
because the people who
were doing the technical

1560
01:34:39,608 --> 01:34:42,759
work lost their funding
and it we've had a very hard

1561
01:34:42,783 --> 01:34:45,772
time finding the funding
to hire someone to do it

1562
01:34:46,480 --> 01:34:50,150
again there's a skill
problem because um yeah a

1563
01:34:50,174 --> 01:34:54,080
lot of people who have
technical skills far beyond

1564
01:34:54,081 --> 01:34:57,388
my own are still looking
at this problem going I

1565
01:34:57,412 --> 01:35:00,732
have no idea how to fix
this um so there's a lot

1566
01:35:00,770 --> 01:35:03,710
there that needs solving
and where there's tiny

1567
01:35:03,734 --> 01:35:06,812
little organization and
we're just trying to find

1568
01:35:10,050 --> 01:35:13,847
a way through um so
the the thing that feels a

1569
01:35:13,871 --> 01:35:18,000
lot more manageable to
me is let's create personal

1570
01:35:18,001 --> 01:35:21,132
websites where we store
the stuff that we've done

1571
01:35:21,156 --> 01:35:24,160
which is also a really
good thing for ourselves

1572
01:35:24,161 --> 01:35:27,114
right like psychologically
um to be able to

1573
01:35:27,138 --> 01:35:30,172
look back at what you've
done rather than uh

1574
01:35:31,250 --> 01:35:34,517
only be able to scroll on
Instagram on your own

1575
01:35:34,541 --> 01:35:37,600
page to kind of see
it um and also like this

1576
01:35:37,601 --> 01:35:40,418
when you create a copy
of something on your own

1577
01:35:40,442 --> 01:35:43,207
personal website you
get a lot of control over

1578
01:35:43,208 --> 01:35:45,559
the way that it's
presented and the way it's

1579
01:35:45,583 --> 01:35:48,332
contextualized right that's
why I think I mean just

1580
01:35:48,445 --> 01:35:51,186
having this process
over the last couple days

1581
01:35:51,210 --> 01:35:54,332
going back and trying to
find because I'm trying to

1582
01:35:56,690 --> 01:36:00,492
do make drops and stuff
out of my old content um

1583
01:36:00,516 --> 01:36:04,252
and having hard time
finding it um having those

1584
01:36:04,290 --> 01:36:07,710
backups I'm doing a lot
of automation with backing

1585
01:36:07,734 --> 01:36:10,892
up everything I totally
understand what you're

1586
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:15,468
saying as far as that goes
because there's so much

1587
01:36:15,492 --> 01:36:19,532
history I'll give you a small
example um every time

1588
01:36:19,620 --> 01:36:22,623
on my phone every
time I took a screenshot it

1589
01:36:22,647 --> 01:36:25,932
was saving it to iCloud
and that's been happening

1590
01:36:26,020 --> 01:36:28,949
since I think the last
time that I had I have I

1591
01:36:28,973 --> 01:36:31,852
have an Android phone
in addition to my iPhone

1592
01:36:31,890 --> 01:36:34,455
but I think the last
time that I just was

1593
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:37,372
strictly Android was
probably there was a note

1594
01:36:37,410 --> 01:36:41,241
three if that gives you
any idea there was a

1595
01:36:41,265 --> 01:36:45,372
long time ago um uh
the first iPhone that I had

1596
01:36:46,290 --> 01:36:50,253
was an iPhone 8 plus
so it's been a long time

1597
01:36:50,277 --> 01:36:54,252
ago um and all those
screenshots uh have been

1598
01:36:54,290 --> 01:36:57,382
uploaded and a lot of
those screenshots tell

1599
01:36:57,406 --> 01:37:00,640
a story from the trans
community because I was

1600
01:37:00,641 --> 01:37:04,532
you know I'm pissed off
and I'm taking a screenshot

1601
01:37:04,556 --> 01:37:07,760
but like literally like
there's so much of

1602
01:37:07,761 --> 01:37:11,334
that history that isn't
just in those screenshots

1603
01:37:11,358 --> 01:37:14,640
you know and if I had
not archived those they

1604
01:37:14,641 --> 01:37:17,893
would just be gone you
know that conversation

1605
01:37:17,917 --> 01:37:20,892
you know I can have
a conversation around

1606
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:30,178
anti-trans people that
have uh that are trans

1607
01:37:30,202 --> 01:37:34,332
themselves trans turf
tokens is what I call them

1608
01:37:35,055 --> 01:37:37,770
but I could have that
discussion because I

1609
01:37:37,794 --> 01:37:40,652
have the screenshots
from you know 2013 2016

1610
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:44,064
that kind of and you
know I went and kind of

1611
01:37:44,088 --> 01:37:47,052
did a little digging and
I'm like oh this person

1612
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:51,237
still identifies uh in the
gender that they transitioned

1613
01:37:51,261 --> 01:37:54,412
to you know they
were full of shit basically

1614
01:37:56,160 --> 01:38:00,277
but having having that
and having the posts that

1615
01:38:00,301 --> 01:38:04,160
I've written kind of
backed up to an XML file

1616
01:38:04,161 --> 01:38:07,518
or something like that
and WordPress has been

1617
01:38:07,542 --> 01:38:11,212
really valuable to me
and I feel like I feel like

1618
01:38:11,650 --> 01:38:15,483
especially with the way
that what we've talked about

1619
01:38:15,507 --> 01:38:19,132
how trans content is being
funneled more and more

1620
01:38:20,690 --> 01:38:23,599
out of the conversations
and out of the history

1621
01:38:23,623 --> 01:38:26,732
you know history is being
a fucking re-written you

1622
01:38:26,770 --> 01:38:29,947
know yeah it's not
being rewritten by trans

1623
01:38:29,971 --> 01:38:33,532
people you know it's
being it's being written by

1624
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:38,948
people that have
capitalism at the center and

1625
01:38:38,972 --> 01:38:42,880
doing the bidding of
capitalists I hate to go

1626
01:38:42,881 --> 01:38:46,117
back down all the time
but I do feel like that

1627
01:38:46,141 --> 01:38:49,532
that is the core of the
problem in terms of that

1628
01:38:49,595 --> 01:38:51,916
so I think man when
it comes to history

1629
01:38:51,940 --> 01:38:54,812
especially when you get
when you get your my age

1630
01:38:56,580 --> 01:39:01,040
and you you start seeing how things have
changed and people don't know the history

1631
01:39:03,030 --> 01:39:07,072
yeah and I think it's
it's bad for us like it's

1632
01:39:07,096 --> 01:39:10,880
bad for us um I don't
know history makes you

1633
01:39:10,881 --> 01:39:14,158
less alone in a way
right like when it feels

1634
01:39:14,182 --> 01:39:17,772
like everything is just
what's happening now and

1635
01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:21,535
the people who you
can turn to for wisdom or

1636
01:39:21,559 --> 01:39:24,720
only the people who
are talking really loudly on

1637
01:39:24,721 --> 01:39:27,737
social media right now
um there's something

1638
01:39:27,761 --> 01:39:31,212
about that that are very
alienating and isolating

1639
01:39:31,250 --> 01:39:35,043
right whereas when you
can look back and see

1640
01:39:35,067 --> 01:39:39,120
trans people from decades
ago saying the things

1641
01:39:39,121 --> 01:39:42,258
that you need to hear
right now then you know

1642
01:39:42,282 --> 01:39:45,852
you're not alone and you
there's this resilience in

1643
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:51,988
that right having even
just going I went on archive.

1644
01:39:52,012 --> 01:39:55,612
org and searched my
name and found episodes

1645
01:39:55,880 --> 01:39:59,633
of another show that
I was on oddly enough

1646
01:39:59,657 --> 01:40:03,692
we used the T word a
lot more back in the day

1647
01:40:04,500 --> 01:40:08,880
sure yeah I was part of a part of
a show called The Radical Trannies

1648
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:19,264
don't really say that
much anymore but but that

1649
01:40:19,288 --> 01:40:23,372
being said having that
to kind of reflect on last

1650
01:40:23,410 --> 01:40:27,211
night I was listening to
an episode where I was

1651
01:40:27,235 --> 01:40:30,751
talking with my co-host
Ethan and Ethan St.

1652
01:40:30,752 --> 01:40:34,701
Pierre and he reminded me
because he he was like I can

1653
01:40:34,725 --> 01:40:38,012
remember when you were
out going door to door

1654
01:40:39,985 --> 01:40:43,657
at the time I was trying
to get Obama elected in

1655
01:40:43,681 --> 01:40:47,200
the States and I was
he's like I remember when

1656
01:40:47,201 --> 01:40:50,868
you were going to door
to door and you would call

1657
01:40:50,892 --> 01:40:54,560
me because you were in
Indiana going door to door

1658
01:40:54,561 --> 01:40:57,673
talking about a black man
did you know what I mean

1659
01:40:57,697 --> 01:41:00,572
in a very conservative
state very conservative

1660
01:41:00,573 --> 01:41:04,100
area and he's like he's
like I remember you

1661
01:41:04,124 --> 01:41:08,172
would call me and just
because you needed to feel

1662
01:41:09,730 --> 01:41:13,649
safe because of where
you were and I was like

1663
01:41:13,673 --> 01:41:17,692
holy shit I don't remember
that but him saying

1664
01:41:17,830 --> 01:41:21,498
that made me kind of
reflect on that and know

1665
01:41:21,522 --> 01:41:25,600
that you know I've come a
long way and and it made

1666
01:41:25,601 --> 01:41:28,716
me remember history
that I'd forgotten so I think

1667
01:41:28,740 --> 01:41:31,612
I think it's it's important
for the community

1668
01:41:32,810 --> 01:41:36,455
but it's also important
for us you know me

1669
01:41:36,479 --> 01:41:40,572
yeah to remember that
I'm not in this by myself

1670
01:41:41,220 --> 01:41:45,245
and I did the the road
that you know what they

1671
01:41:45,269 --> 01:41:49,132
say about is paved on
the backs of of giants

1672
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:53,499
in the community especially
you know there's so

1673
01:41:53,523 --> 01:41:56,732
many people that that
I was in community with

1674
01:42:01,060 --> 01:42:04,873
that have either passed
or kind of they're you

1675
01:42:04,897 --> 01:42:08,960
know have moved on
retired that people don't know

1676
01:42:08,961 --> 01:42:12,822
about and this is kind
of like a test episode

1677
01:42:12,846 --> 01:42:16,880
for me to kind of get
myself back into I wanted

1678
01:42:16,881 --> 01:42:20,354
to talk to you but what
the shows going forward

1679
01:42:20,378 --> 01:42:24,012
I really do want to talk
to people that I've come

1680
01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:27,760
across in that journey
that I had my trans

1681
01:42:27,784 --> 01:42:32,092
activism and talk to those
people one person I in

1682
01:42:32,305 --> 01:42:35,230
particular that I want to
talk to is Monica Helms

1683
01:42:35,254 --> 01:42:38,007
I've interviewed her
quite a few times I don't

1684
01:42:38,008 --> 01:42:40,748
know if you know who
she is but she's a person

1685
01:42:40,772 --> 01:42:43,532
that created the the
trans flag the trans flag

1686
01:42:43,533 --> 01:42:46,596
as we know it she's
the creator of that and

1687
01:42:46,620 --> 01:42:49,852
those were the kind
of people that that I was

1688
01:42:49,890 --> 01:42:52,781
in community with that a
lot of people don't know

1689
01:42:52,805 --> 01:42:55,532
the history and if you
go ahead and you search

1690
01:42:57,130 --> 01:43:00,473
her name a lot of the
things are Christian

1691
01:43:00,497 --> 01:43:04,492
websites that have kind
of burned her history into

1692
01:43:04,530 --> 01:43:08,296
something perverted
that it's not you know but

1693
01:43:08,320 --> 01:43:11,852
it's just really vile
but people don't have

1694
01:43:12,870 --> 01:43:16,303
the context of the
history of that experience

1695
01:43:16,327 --> 01:43:19,772
that I had and I kind
of want to revisit that

1696
01:43:20,210 --> 01:43:23,618
and talk to people in
my past that kind of a

1697
01:43:23,642 --> 01:43:27,452
part of that history that
people don't talk about

1698
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:36,076
I think it's really the
any kind of trans archive

1699
01:43:36,100 --> 01:43:39,360
work is invaluable for
not just you know me

1700
01:43:39,361 --> 01:43:42,429
feeling good about what
we did but at the same time

1701
01:43:42,453 --> 01:43:45,292
about people that are
coming into the community

1702
01:43:45,293 --> 01:43:49,353
now understanding the
context of where they came

1703
01:43:49,377 --> 01:43:53,292
from and what you know
so the same things that

1704
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:58,091
the problems that we had
aren't repeated or because

1705
01:43:58,115 --> 01:44:01,772
I mean one of the
episodes that I listened to

1706
01:44:06,105 --> 01:44:10,246
was during the Bush
administration and how corrupt

1707
01:44:10,270 --> 01:44:14,092
and what a dark time
that was like literally I

1708
01:44:14,155 --> 01:44:17,231
talked in the one of
the episodes where I was

1709
01:44:17,255 --> 01:44:20,412
like I don't know if I
have two part-time jobs

1710
01:44:20,500 --> 01:44:23,465
and I don't know if I'm
gonna be able to keep

1711
01:44:23,489 --> 01:44:26,720
one of them because of
a no match Social Security

1712
01:44:26,721 --> 01:44:30,658
letter that where my
driver's license was different

1713
01:44:30,682 --> 01:44:34,000
from my Social Security
gender those things

1714
01:44:34,001 --> 01:44:36,028
two things didn't match
so my employer was like

1715
01:44:36,052 --> 01:44:38,092
I don't know if we're
gonna be able to keep you

1716
01:44:38,900 --> 01:44:41,652
the only reason I
think I kept that job was

1717
01:44:41,676 --> 01:44:44,892
because I had been a
delegate for Obama and I made

1718
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:48,865
it pretty clear that I
was gonna make a fuss

1719
01:44:48,889 --> 01:44:52,732
if they didn't straighten
it out so that it but

1720
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:57,216
like that is there are so
many people that didn't

1721
01:44:57,240 --> 01:45:00,572
that or you don't have
that kind of connection

1722
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:09,857
yeah and privilege is
what it was but that history

1723
01:45:09,881 --> 01:45:13,292
of those people needs
to be recorded needs to

1724
01:45:13,330 --> 01:45:16,475
be talked about needs
to be known about and

1725
01:45:16,499 --> 01:45:20,172
that's why I think it's
important to do this again

1726
01:45:20,930 --> 01:45:24,220
yeah you know not
just because I like it but

1727
01:45:24,244 --> 01:45:27,772
also because knowing
that history helps us know

1728
01:45:27,860 --> 01:45:30,455
who know the community
that we're in and what

1729
01:45:30,479 --> 01:45:32,972
we're doing I guess
also like it makes that

1730
01:45:32,985 --> 01:45:38,320
conversation more concrete right because
we're going to keep having the debate about

1731
01:45:40,050 --> 01:45:43,023
whether official state
recognition of our

1732
01:45:43,047 --> 01:45:46,252
gender is the right
thing to fight for right

1733
01:45:47,755 --> 01:45:51,042
and I think we if we
can have that discussion

1734
01:45:51,066 --> 01:45:54,732
with the with that historical
referendum behind it

1735
01:45:56,020 --> 01:45:58,383
I'm like yeah cool in
theory it would be great

1736
01:45:58,407 --> 01:46:00,732
to be able to exist
without state recognition

1737
01:46:00,870 --> 01:46:07,040
but in practice this is what happens
people lose their jobs like in theory like

1738
01:46:09,590 --> 01:46:16,160
you know it's very it's very limiting
to how to pick a gender to put on your

1739
01:46:16,755 --> 01:46:18,880
official documentation
at all we should campaign

1740
01:46:18,904 --> 01:46:21,132
to have it removed okay
but where are we right now

1741
01:46:22,715 --> 01:46:24,969
like are we gonna be
able to achieve that or is

1742
01:46:24,993 --> 01:46:27,452
that going to lead us to
further disenfranchisement

1743
01:46:29,380 --> 01:46:31,866
it's if we're not
looking at it brand new

1744
01:46:31,890 --> 01:46:34,572
each time then we're
gonna be a lot stronger

1745
01:46:36,340 --> 01:46:39,405
and conservatives
do this a lot they care

1746
01:46:39,429 --> 01:46:42,732
excuse me they care
more about hypotheticals

1747
01:46:43,460 --> 01:46:49,040
than they do actual lives yeah they
care they care about the hypothetical baby

1748
01:46:49,700 --> 01:46:54,240
but once that baby is born they don't
give shit yeah that's your responsibility

1749
01:46:55,460 --> 01:46:58,880
you know yeah they care
about the hypothetical sex worker

1750
01:46:59,670 --> 01:47:02,173
but when the when
that sex worker once the

1751
01:47:02,197 --> 01:47:04,892
actual sex worker
wants a voice I'll fuck you

1752
01:47:04,980 --> 01:47:07,963
you know yeah I
wonder if like those issues

1753
01:47:07,987 --> 01:47:11,052
in conservatism are
about like the horror of

1754
01:47:11,065 --> 01:47:18,320
interdependency with other humans right um
like people identify with the unborn baby

1755
01:47:18,445 --> 01:47:21,001
because they were once
dependent on someone

1756
01:47:21,025 --> 01:47:24,012
carrying them to term as
a pregnancy and they hate

1757
01:47:24,013 --> 01:47:27,467
the thought that they
wouldn't exist right um

1758
01:47:27,491 --> 01:47:30,880
like and so what they
so it is at the end of

1759
01:47:30,881 --> 01:47:32,785
today about controlling
women's bodies because

1760
01:47:32,809 --> 01:47:34,892
it's so terrifying to them
that they are dependent

1761
01:47:34,893 --> 01:47:38,829
on women's bodies is
there anything that you want

1762
01:47:38,853 --> 01:47:42,652
to promote anything
else you want to talk about

1763
01:47:45,035 --> 01:47:52,960
um follow my uh blog I guess um if you're
on Mastodon you can follow me at

1764
01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:57,120
@zoy@merveilles.town I'm sure that I'll
be linked somewhere around this

1765
01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:01,231
in the show notes when I
do them yeah um because

1766
01:48:01,255 --> 01:48:04,812
that's a hardware just
well but it'll be it'll be

1767
01:48:04,850 --> 01:48:08,568
there somewhere um
are you are is everything

1768
01:48:08,592 --> 01:48:12,492
that you're doing is it
uh who's it can people

1769
01:48:12,530 --> 01:48:15,739
find it from Intrapology
i'm just curious um

1770
01:48:15,763 --> 01:48:19,120
it's I think it's easiest
to find from

1771
01:48:19,121 --> 01:48:21,713
zoyander.cc because
Intrapology is focused on

1772
01:48:21,737 --> 01:48:24,652
like that one project um
but yeah zoyander.cc

1773
01:48:24,653 --> 01:48:27,828
has a um feed from
my blog with like the most

1774
01:48:27,852 --> 01:48:31,040
important updates and
it's also got links to all

1775
01:48:31,041 --> 01:48:33,493
my socials um with
explanations of like which

1776
01:48:33,517 --> 01:48:36,092
ones are actually a
priority and which ones are

1777
01:48:37,470 --> 01:48:41,322
syndicated um uh so yeah
that's probably the best

1778
01:48:41,346 --> 01:48:45,120
way to stay up today um
the uh when registration

1779
01:48:45,121 --> 01:48:48,007
opens for the workshop
i'm doing in November that

1780
01:48:48,031 --> 01:48:50,807
will go on my main blog
and that you'll be able

1781
01:48:50,808 --> 01:48:53,135
to see that on
zoyander.cc you can also

1782
01:48:53,159 --> 01:48:55,932
subscribe to my blog which
is blog.zoyander.cc

1783
01:49:00,130 --> 01:49:04,133
um using RSS or email
um similarly i'm working

1784
01:49:04,157 --> 01:49:08,080
on uh zine for Fede
zine fest which is a project

1785
01:49:08,081 --> 01:49:11,856
that mails out um or
emails out you could do

1786
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:16,000
the digital version only
um but uh you can buy a

1787
01:49:16,001 --> 01:49:19,101
bundle of zines by lots
of different artists um

1788
01:49:19,125 --> 01:49:22,172
so i'm doing a zine
for that um it's like i'll

1789
01:49:23,570 --> 01:49:26,367
i'll put that on the blog
as well um yeah i think

1790
01:49:26,391 --> 01:49:28,972
that's that's the main
way to stay up to date

1791
01:49:29,700 --> 01:49:32,433
so this thing that's
happening in London are

1792
01:49:32,457 --> 01:49:35,452
they going are they going
to have any kind of uh

1793
01:49:36,240 --> 01:49:39,566
streaming presence those
first i'll go yeah um it's

1794
01:49:39,590 --> 01:49:42,732
so it's hybrid uh so i'm
going to do it remotely

1795
01:49:42,745 --> 01:49:45,433
um and there's going to
be a presence physically

1796
01:49:45,457 --> 01:49:47,927
in London at Studio
Voltaire but you can join

1797
01:49:47,928 --> 01:49:50,628
remotely you don't need
to be in London surely

1798
01:49:50,652 --> 01:49:53,372
okay because to be
honest with you like i move

1799
01:49:53,635 --> 01:49:56,959
from uh for those of you
that don't know i'm at i

1800
01:49:56,983 --> 01:50:00,252
live in the uk now but i
have for about the last

1801
01:50:00,265 --> 01:50:04,285
decade but i lived in
the southeast for quite

1802
01:50:04,309 --> 01:50:08,252
a long time i lived
in chat of mite in it uh

1803
01:50:09,750 --> 01:50:13,185
southeast like a kent
basically is uh in the

1804
01:50:13,209 --> 01:50:16,892
southeast uh so i could
be on a train and be in

1805
01:50:16,980 --> 01:50:20,280
London pretty quickly
if i wanted to be but

1806
01:50:20,304 --> 01:50:23,772
now i live basically
outside of new castle so

1807
01:50:25,010 --> 01:50:29,018
yeah almost since got
one yeah um yeah trips

1808
01:50:29,042 --> 01:50:32,960
to london are a huge
uh huge pain for me um

1809
01:50:32,961 --> 01:50:35,346
when i when we last
time we tried to do this

1810
01:50:35,370 --> 01:50:37,927
workshop in january
Studio Voltaire we're amazing

1811
01:50:37,928 --> 01:50:40,176
and like they um
they've been the best of

1812
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:43,132
recognizing my access
needs of like any org that i've

1813
01:50:43,220 --> 01:50:46,835
done work with um so
they like covered my hotel

1814
01:50:46,859 --> 01:50:50,320
and stuff um because
in theory i could travel

1815
01:50:50,321 --> 01:50:52,440
down and back on the
same day but like it would

1816
01:50:52,464 --> 01:50:54,732
completely wipe me out
for like a month to do that

1817
01:50:55,460 --> 01:50:58,307
um so yeah it is rough
attending things at london

1818
01:50:58,331 --> 01:51:01,127
when you live outside
properly outside of london

1819
01:51:01,128 --> 01:51:03,957
like not in its um feeder
network thank you for

1820
01:51:03,981 --> 01:51:08,320
coming on the show uh thank you it's been
a pleasure Thanks so much for inviting me.